4 ms·

Seems really low. Imagine if they unionized!

bluntfang 8y ago
gosh what the tech industry could accomplish with a union...the excuse I always hear is "but we have it so well! why do we need to organize?!". Organize for the people that clean your office space, organize for marginalized peoples, organize to make the world a better place, not just your industry. Think what would happen if AWS was without site reliability for 72 hours.
- MPSimmons 8y ago
  The only thing that highly technical workers dislike more than meeting in real life with each other is having someone tell them what they can and can't do. Unions aren't really compatible with the mindset in Tech today, in my experience knowing people. Small movements start, bikeshedding happens, and everything fractures.
  - geodel 8y ago
    Well, theoretically Google employees can Unionize but theoretically Google can also spin out half dozen labs as separate companies and buy technology at exorbitant rates. Meanwhile union employees will get paid union rates which I am thinking won't be too high.
    - Spooky23 8y ago
      Depends on the deal. My cousin is a state police sergeant. He makes as much as a director level employee in most areas. My sister in law is a unionized nurse practitioner. Unionization raised her salary a bit, but most importantly stabilized her schedule.
- Tehchops 8y ago
  Oh not this deceased equine again. Is /r/sysadmin leaking? >gosh what the tech industry could accomplish with a union Much less than it does now. I've had odd jobs at union places. I know career workers in union-dominated industries. We don't want it within 10 miles of tech. A fun thought experiment I ask people to do that usually puts this one to bed: Imagine the most useless, technically incompetent, lazy sack of flesh that you were unfortunate enough to share the title of "engineer" with(and office space too). In a union, they'd be very nearly impossible to fire, and based on tenure would probably make more than most of their peers. Multiply ^^ said scenario over multiple tech companies and a few thousand workers, and see what happens.
  - ddorian43 8y ago
    Why doesnt that happen enough in current unionizes jobs ?
    - mkirklions 8y ago
      This does happen in current union jobs. There is a reason for outsourcing, and its not just cost.
  - tway2888888 8y ago
    >Imagine the most useless, technically incompetent, lazy sack of flesh that you were unfortunate enough to share the title of "engineer" with(and office space too). In a union, they'd be very nearly impossible to fire, and based on tenure would probably make more than most of their peers. I worked 4 years in a Canadian Auto Workers unionized plant. This is not my experience, whatsoever. If you do your job, you can't be fired because you rub your manager the wrong way (imagine that?). If you don't, there's a process to fire employees. A union is just that: a union of people. If you're a cancerous employee, the union doesn't want to work with you either.
- mkirklions 8y ago
  Our engineeers had the opportunity to unionize. We had a fantastic team and boss. Everyone wanted us to be non-union. Then... The union factory people demanded we joined the union. We became a heated center of debate despite 0 of us wanting to join the union. We survived, and I get paid for lunches!(they dont)
- forgottenpass 8y ago
  >organize to make the world a better place I'm terrified of labor organization specifically because of vague and ill-defined goals. Without a well defined purpose, the goal of an organization turns to self-perpetuation, and can do so at the expense of members. Of the reasons to organize, the most convincing to me is an ethical opposition to abusing the time, privacy, and mental state of users who have no practical option but to trust the tools we build. Get a critical mass to build and commit to specific and articulate goals. On screen and upfront. Then, and only then, will I entertain the idea of a union to implement it.
Nokinside 8y ago
I have always wondered why Americans see their unions as so dysfunctional and harmful. I have never had problems with unions as en employer. Then I learned that US has completely different union system from Europe. You guys have so called enterprise-level bargaining with union shops and agency shops where workers must be part of an union or pay the fee for an union. Then union negotiates pay in enterprise-level. I can see how this is extremely harmful and entrepreneurs must fight tooth and nail against unionizing. Most of the world has so called sector level bargaining. Unionized workers negotiate for all workers in an entire industry. Union representing electricians negotiates with federation representing companies that hire electricians. After they reach a deal that covers enough unionized workers the deal is extended to the whole industry. You essentially negotiate minimum wage per sector plus benefits.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  Agreed. Per sector is much better. The companies in that sector still can compete on a level playing field. In the US the company with the worst labor practices has an advantage.
- dredmorbius 8y ago
  In practice, labour contracts with one firm within an industry, for major unions & firms, often set the industry payscale This was long the practice in the US auto industry. Discussed in this story: https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/2015/09/08/uaw-president-contract-talks/71835914/ https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/2015/09/08/uaw-pr...
  - Nokinside 8y ago
    That can be true even without unions when the industry is dominated by handful of large companies and their is demand for labor.
- ijin 8y ago
  I would assume it has to do with the low rate of unionization. A high rate of organization among employers and employees really disincentives 'rogue' behavior. These online discussions naturally tends to focus on things like salaries and conflicts, but often these organization also have other roles in industry, education and even politics. At least I often find this preferable to just having a few politicians or a few large companies trying to decide what to do.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
cup-of-tea 8y ago
As someone living/working outside of the US, I'm not sure if this post is a joke. Is a median of $200k actually low?
- rayvd 8y ago
  Depends on where you live.
  - cdelsolar 8y ago
    There is nowhere in the USA where $200k is low.
- umanwizard 8y ago
  $200k is not low anywhere in the US for any job (except maybe certain types of specialist doctor).
- vancan1ty 8y ago
  I think its a joke, or it should be. Income of $200k puts you above 97.3% of Americans according to https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/ https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/ .

gosh what the tech industry could accomplish with a union...the excuse I always hear is "but we have it so well! why do we need to organize?!". Organize for the people that clean your office space, organize for marginalized peoples, organize to make the world a better place, not just your industry. Think what would happen if AWS was without site reliability for 72 hours.

MPSimmons 8y ago
The only thing that highly technical workers dislike more than meeting in real life with each other is having someone tell them what they can and can't do. Unions aren't really compatible with the mindset in Tech today, in my experience knowing people. Small movements start, bikeshedding happens, and everything fractures.
- geodel 8y ago
  Well, theoretically Google employees can Unionize but theoretically Google can also spin out half dozen labs as separate companies and buy technology at exorbitant rates. Meanwhile union employees will get paid union rates which I am thinking won't be too high.
  - Spooky23 8y ago
    Depends on the deal. My cousin is a state police sergeant. He makes as much as a director level employee in most areas. My sister in law is a unionized nurse practitioner. Unionization raised her salary a bit, but most importantly stabilized her schedule.
Tehchops 8y ago
Oh not this deceased equine again. Is /r/sysadmin leaking? >gosh what the tech industry could accomplish with a union Much less than it does now. I've had odd jobs at union places. I know career workers in union-dominated industries. We don't want it within 10 miles of tech. A fun thought experiment I ask people to do that usually puts this one to bed: Imagine the most useless, technically incompetent, lazy sack of flesh that you were unfortunate enough to share the title of "engineer" with(and office space too). In a union, they'd be very nearly impossible to fire, and based on tenure would probably make more than most of their peers. Multiply ^^ said scenario over multiple tech companies and a few thousand workers, and see what happens.
- ddorian43 8y ago
  Why doesnt that happen enough in current unionizes jobs ?
  - mkirklions 8y ago
    This does happen in current union jobs. There is a reason for outsourcing, and its not just cost.
- tway2888888 8y ago
  >Imagine the most useless, technically incompetent, lazy sack of flesh that you were unfortunate enough to share the title of "engineer" with(and office space too). In a union, they'd be very nearly impossible to fire, and based on tenure would probably make more than most of their peers. I worked 4 years in a Canadian Auto Workers unionized plant. This is not my experience, whatsoever. If you do your job, you can't be fired because you rub your manager the wrong way (imagine that?). If you don't, there's a process to fire employees. A union is just that: a union of people. If you're a cancerous employee, the union doesn't want to work with you either.
mkirklions 8y ago
Our engineeers had the opportunity to unionize. We had a fantastic team and boss. Everyone wanted us to be non-union. Then... The union factory people demanded we joined the union. We became a heated center of debate despite 0 of us wanting to join the union. We survived, and I get paid for lunches!(they dont)
forgottenpass 8y ago
>organize to make the world a better place I'm terrified of labor organization specifically because of vague and ill-defined goals. Without a well defined purpose, the goal of an organization turns to self-perpetuation, and can do so at the expense of members. Of the reasons to organize, the most convincing to me is an ethical opposition to abusing the time, privacy, and mental state of users who have no practical option but to trust the tools we build. Get a critical mass to build and commit to specific and articulate goals. On screen and upfront. Then, and only then, will I entertain the idea of a union to implement it.

Nokinside 8y ago

I have always wondered why Americans see their unions as so dysfunctional and harmful. I have never had problems with unions as en employer. Then I learned that US has completely different union system from Europe. You guys have so called enterprise-level bargaining with union shops and agency shops where workers must be part of an union or pay the fee for an union. Then union negotiates pay in enterprise-level. I can see how this is extremely harmful and entrepreneurs must fight tooth and nail against unionizing. Most of the world has so called sector level bargaining. Unionized workers negotiate for all workers in an entire industry. Union representing electricians negotiates with federation representing companies that hire electricians. After they reach a deal that covers enough unionized workers the deal is extended to the whole industry. You essentially negotiate minimum wage per sector plus benefits.

maxxxxx 8y ago
Agreed. Per sector is much better. The companies in that sector still can compete on a level playing field. In the US the company with the worst labor practices has an advantage.
dredmorbius 8y ago
In practice, labour contracts with one firm within an industry, for major unions & firms, often set the industry payscale This was long the practice in the US auto industry. Discussed in this story: https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/2015/09/08/uaw-president-contract-talks/71835914/ https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/2015/09/08/uaw-pr...
- Nokinside 8y ago
  That can be true even without unions when the industry is dominated by handful of large companies and their is demand for labor.
ijin 8y ago
I would assume it has to do with the low rate of unionization. A high rate of organization among employers and employees really disincentives 'rogue' behavior. These online discussions naturally tends to focus on things like salaries and conflicts, but often these organization also have other roles in industry, education and even politics. At least I often find this preferable to just having a few politicians or a few large companies trying to decide what to do.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

cup-of-tea 8y ago

As someone living/working outside of the US, I'm not sure if this post is a joke. Is a median of $200k actually low?

rayvd 8y ago
Depends on where you live.
- cdelsolar 8y ago
  There is nowhere in the USA where $200k is low.
umanwizard 8y ago
$200k is not low anywhere in the US for any job (except maybe certain types of specialist doctor).
vancan1ty 8y ago
I think its a joke, or it should be. Income of $200k puts you above 97.3% of Americans according to https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/ https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/ .