6 ms·

If this is just about not getting laid, I think it's time for sex work to become legal. Or is that not an option these folks have considered?

cup 8y ago
Maybe It's time for people to realise they don't 'deserve' sex and that they should get counselling, seek help and form constructive relationships that improve their lives rather than kill people.
- Zanni 8y ago
  The word 'deserve' is not used in the article. I think you're missing the point by laying that on them (and by suggesting they're all killers). But counseling and help forming constructive relationships is what they need. On that we agree. This is a tough read, and I admire the author for tackling the subject, especially in the wake of the recent killings. To even suggest sympathy for a group that are so manifestly unsympathetic is brave. And the incels themselves, man, I just want to shake these guys and say, "It's not all about sex. It's not all about you. Get over yourself. Get a life." No one deserves sex. But I don't think we're doing the world any favors by piling on to people who are clearly in pain, no matter how much it's of their own making.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- Y_Y 8y ago
  This sounds like the equivalent of "Poor people should realise that society doesn't owe them anything, and should stop being lazy and instead work hard and be happy like me". "Incels" aren't all just too stupid to get out of a situation they don't want to be in, they're not willfully miserable. If it was as simple as just doing the right thing and becoming "normal" they'd probably have done it.
zaarn 8y ago
This option has been largely stigmatized in modern society.
skybrian 8y ago
It doesn't do anything about the perception of being low status, which is at least half the problem.
arnoooooo 8y ago
How is the exploitation of women a solution to anything ?
- soziawa 8y ago
  Prostitution does not have to be exploitation.
  - arnoooooo 8y ago
    It is exploitation most of the time though. And it's pretty hard to say when it isn't : you can't talk about choices without considering the conditions in which they are made. There are most likely situations where prostitution is not exploitation, but I don't think they justify making it something normal. I'd rather live in a society in which we agree that some things are not for sale. Intimacy seems to me like a good candidate for something that is not for sale. We want people to stop objectifying women, let's not have womens' bodies routinely sold and bought.
    - supreme_sublime 8y ago
      You mean a world where women can decide what to do with their own bodies? You are advocating for a world where we have to take care of the poor downtrodden woman who just doesn't know any better. Instead of realizing that she likely knows her own needs much better than you do. Perhaps it is the best way for her to get ahead and escape her current situation. People do it anyway and now they have almost no recourse when they are being manipulated. If it were legal, women would actually have more power in the situation.
      - arnoooooo 8y ago
        Society is all about limits on freedom. We need to find the right balance. I think a society where some things are not for sale is a good thing. Consider also according to studies, a majority of voluntary prostitutes have been victims of abuse as children.
threatofrain 8y ago
But I have my doubts that they just have some simple biological need that's so easily satisfied with a prostitute. I also have the feeling that poverty or being an economic loser underlies this social phenomena, rather than simply unmet sexual needs.
yannick 8y ago
sorry, but didn't you read the article? It begins with years of bullying at school, well before puberty. Making sex work legal doesn't seem like a solution that addresses anything about the actual root cause of this issue.
- throwaway84742 8y ago
  You are not going to get rid of bullying at school. You may be able to make it more subtle, but not eliminate it entirely. It’s the basic pissing contest with which social dominance hierarchy is established. Those on top get the best looking girls (who come to them voluntarily), and more dopamine in their bloodstream. This mechanism is rooted in evolution and goes all the way back to crustaceans. You are not going to be able to eliminate it, period. So I think as a palliative measure, legalizing sex work is long overdue. Some sex is better than none at all.
  - DanBC 8y ago
    Incels don't want to use prostitutes, because sex workers have the right to say no. Also, incels are prepared to murder other people. Why do you think sex work laws are a deterrant?
    - throwaway84742 8y ago
      We probably have a different definition of “incel” then. To me “involuntarily celibate” means “unable to find a willing sexual partner”. That’s the problem prostitution has been solving quite handily for thousands of years.
      - aninhumer 8y ago
        That's the etymology of "incel", but in practice it's not just a definition, it's a community identity with a lot of associated baggage. There are plenty of lonely young men who don't consider themselves "incels", often because they don't want to associate themselves with that community. And if you examine the community, you'll quickly find that they don't think sex work "counts". Because what they want isn't sex, it's the status they imagine it confers, and if you had to pay for it, you didn't "earn" that status.

cup 8y ago

Maybe It's time for people to realise they don't 'deserve' sex and that they should get counselling, seek help and form constructive relationships that improve their lives rather than kill people.

Zanni 8y ago
The word 'deserve' is not used in the article. I think you're missing the point by laying that on them (and by suggesting they're all killers). But counseling and help forming constructive relationships is what they need. On that we agree. This is a tough read, and I admire the author for tackling the subject, especially in the wake of the recent killings. To even suggest sympathy for a group that are so manifestly unsympathetic is brave. And the incels themselves, man, I just want to shake these guys and say, "It's not all about sex. It's not all about you. Get over yourself. Get a life." No one deserves sex. But I don't think we're doing the world any favors by piling on to people who are clearly in pain, no matter how much it's of their own making.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
Y_Y 8y ago
This sounds like the equivalent of "Poor people should realise that society doesn't owe them anything, and should stop being lazy and instead work hard and be happy like me". "Incels" aren't all just too stupid to get out of a situation they don't want to be in, they're not willfully miserable. If it was as simple as just doing the right thing and becoming "normal" they'd probably have done it.

zaarn 8y ago

This option has been largely stigmatized in modern society.

skybrian 8y ago

It doesn't do anything about the perception of being low status, which is at least half the problem.

arnoooooo 8y ago

How is the exploitation of women a solution to anything ?

soziawa 8y ago
Prostitution does not have to be exploitation.
- arnoooooo 8y ago
  It is exploitation most of the time though. And it's pretty hard to say when it isn't : you can't talk about choices without considering the conditions in which they are made. There are most likely situations where prostitution is not exploitation, but I don't think they justify making it something normal. I'd rather live in a society in which we agree that some things are not for sale. Intimacy seems to me like a good candidate for something that is not for sale. We want people to stop objectifying women, let's not have womens' bodies routinely sold and bought.
  - supreme_sublime 8y ago
    You mean a world where women can decide what to do with their own bodies? You are advocating for a world where we have to take care of the poor downtrodden woman who just doesn't know any better. Instead of realizing that she likely knows her own needs much better than you do. Perhaps it is the best way for her to get ahead and escape her current situation. People do it anyway and now they have almost no recourse when they are being manipulated. If it were legal, women would actually have more power in the situation.
    - arnoooooo 8y ago
      Society is all about limits on freedom. We need to find the right balance. I think a society where some things are not for sale is a good thing. Consider also according to studies, a majority of voluntary prostitutes have been victims of abuse as children.

threatofrain 8y ago

But I have my doubts that they just have some simple biological need that's so easily satisfied with a prostitute. I also have the feeling that poverty or being an economic loser underlies this social phenomena, rather than simply unmet sexual needs.

yannick 8y ago

sorry, but didn't you read the article? It begins with years of bullying at school, well before puberty. Making sex work legal doesn't seem like a solution that addresses anything about the actual root cause of this issue.

throwaway84742 8y ago
You are not going to get rid of bullying at school. You may be able to make it more subtle, but not eliminate it entirely. It’s the basic pissing contest with which social dominance hierarchy is established. Those on top get the best looking girls (who come to them voluntarily), and more dopamine in their bloodstream. This mechanism is rooted in evolution and goes all the way back to crustaceans. You are not going to be able to eliminate it, period. So I think as a palliative measure, legalizing sex work is long overdue. Some sex is better than none at all.
- DanBC 8y ago
  Incels don't want to use prostitutes, because sex workers have the right to say no. Also, incels are prepared to murder other people. Why do you think sex work laws are a deterrant?
  - throwaway84742 8y ago
    We probably have a different definition of “incel” then. To me “involuntarily celibate” means “unable to find a willing sexual partner”. That’s the problem prostitution has been solving quite handily for thousands of years.
    - aninhumer 8y ago
      That's the etymology of "incel", but in practice it's not just a definition, it's a community identity with a lot of associated baggage. There are plenty of lonely young men who don't consider themselves "incels", often because they don't want to associate themselves with that community. And if you examine the community, you'll quickly find that they don't think sex work "counts". Because what they want isn't sex, it's the status they imagine it confers, and if you had to pay for it, you didn't "earn" that status.