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China policy is pro small business and EU is anti small business. I am pro small business, and I am against censorship. I see however historically opposite tr

by cft 8y ago

China policy is pro small business and EU is anti small business. I am pro small business, and I am against censorship. I see however historically opposite trends over the last 20 years: China is getting more free speech and is getting more pro small business, and Europe is the opposite. And it's not a coincidence. I think eventually the censorship curves of China and EU will cross. Small business friendliness curves crossed perhaps 15 years ago.

lovich 8y ago
China's policy is pro China only and to suggest that they're regulations wouldn't change if Alibaba was 20 times the size of Amazon or any other reversal of size between US and Chinese companies is ridiculous. The GPDR might end up being bad regulation, but we we're already getting bad results for the average citizen. If the industry wasn't going to regulate itself, and it's hurting citizens, are governments supposed to just stand back and hope it works out for the best? Maybe in a libertarian paradise, but no national government is currently running on that paradigm Edit: also free speech != No regulations. Companies aren't people and they shouldn't be getting the same rights as people. You can't just do whatever you want to make a dollar and then try and claim free speech protections
- briandear 8y ago
  Companies absolutely should have free speech rights. A company is a group of PEOPLE who have joined together to sell or promote a product, service, or policy. Should a union be denied freedom of speech? Because a union is a corporation as well. What about the Sierra Club? Should they be silenced? They too are a corporation. Should a teachers union be allowed to speak, but Khan Academy denied the same right? Should organizations advocating free WiFi be allowed speech, but Comcast be denied the same right? The “companies are not people” tripe being parroted since Citizens United is a naïve and dangerous road down which people are attempting to travel. At the core of the issue is the right of free association. Free association is fundamental to free speech and a free society. Profit motive is irrelevant because profit is just as valid of a goal as “better schools” or “better public policy” or whatever the cause might be.
  - mcbits 8y ago
    People are composed of cells that work together for a common purpose. Is a person a cell, to be treated the same way we treat actual cells? Governments are people who have joined together for the common purpose of governing. Does that make a government indistinguishable from an individual person, which is basically just a cell? Is there a difference between one kid running across your lawn and 10,000 kids organized for the purpose of running across your lawn?
  - rrrazdan 8y ago
    I don’t know why you are downvoted since your comment is a well formed addition to the discussion. I upvoted you and I am seeing this on HN more often now. That people would use downvote as a signal of disagreement.
    - lovich 8y ago
      We're in a thread where people are claiming that China's approach to regulation is objectively better than the EU's because it let's them do whatever they want as a company. I was always going to upset some people who are the pro corporate ideology by claiming that companies aren't people and HN has been turning more and more into reddit as it's gotten more popular
  - dingaling 8y ago
    People are granted free speech because they are considered valuable, unique, irreplaceable, self-conscious entities. A corporation is a piece of paper registered for $100 that can be destroyed without penalty. It is a tool for achieving an objective, just like a computer. Many people join together to make Wikipedia, but we don't grant that website free speech...
07d046 8y ago
> China is getting more free speech That's just not true. The West hoped that would be the case when Xi took charge, but it's gone in the opposite direction since then. How many chat apps can you use where the CCP isn't listening in on your conversation? They practice wide scale censorship on their own social media, Western social media sites are blocked, and important sources of information like Wikipedia and the New York Times are blocked too. https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2018/china https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2018/china > China’s authoritarian regime has become increasingly repressive in recent years. The ruling Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is tightening its control over the media, online speech, religious groups, and civil society associations while undermining already modest rule-of-law reforms.
escape_goat 8y ago
It is misleading to say that "China is getting more free speech," as this phrase conjures notions in the west of unregulated political speech: by anyone, to anyone, for any purpose. In fact, the policy line that has been set forth in China is quite clear, and it does not lead in such a direction.

by cft 8y ago

lovich 8y ago

China's policy is pro China only and to suggest that they're regulations wouldn't change if Alibaba was 20 times the size of Amazon or any other reversal of size between US and Chinese companies is ridiculous. The GPDR might end up being bad regulation, but we we're already getting bad results for the average citizen. If the industry wasn't going to regulate itself, and it's hurting citizens, are governments supposed to just stand back and hope it works out for the best? Maybe in a libertarian paradise, but no national government is currently running on that paradigm Edit: also free speech != No regulations. Companies aren't people and they shouldn't be getting the same rights as people. You can't just do whatever you want to make a dollar and then try and claim free speech protections

briandear 8y ago
Companies absolutely should have free speech rights. A company is a group of PEOPLE who have joined together to sell or promote a product, service, or policy. Should a union be denied freedom of speech? Because a union is a corporation as well. What about the Sierra Club? Should they be silenced? They too are a corporation. Should a teachers union be allowed to speak, but Khan Academy denied the same right? Should organizations advocating free WiFi be allowed speech, but Comcast be denied the same right? The “companies are not people” tripe being parroted since Citizens United is a naïve and dangerous road down which people are attempting to travel. At the core of the issue is the right of free association. Free association is fundamental to free speech and a free society. Profit motive is irrelevant because profit is just as valid of a goal as “better schools” or “better public policy” or whatever the cause might be.
- mcbits 8y ago
  People are composed of cells that work together for a common purpose. Is a person a cell, to be treated the same way we treat actual cells? Governments are people who have joined together for the common purpose of governing. Does that make a government indistinguishable from an individual person, which is basically just a cell? Is there a difference between one kid running across your lawn and 10,000 kids organized for the purpose of running across your lawn?
- rrrazdan 8y ago
  I don’t know why you are downvoted since your comment is a well formed addition to the discussion. I upvoted you and I am seeing this on HN more often now. That people would use downvote as a signal of disagreement.
  - lovich 8y ago
    We're in a thread where people are claiming that China's approach to regulation is objectively better than the EU's because it let's them do whatever they want as a company. I was always going to upset some people who are the pro corporate ideology by claiming that companies aren't people and HN has been turning more and more into reddit as it's gotten more popular
- dingaling 8y ago
  People are granted free speech because they are considered valuable, unique, irreplaceable, self-conscious entities. A corporation is a piece of paper registered for $100 that can be destroyed without penalty. It is a tool for achieving an objective, just like a computer. Many people join together to make Wikipedia, but we don't grant that website free speech...

07d046 8y ago

> China is getting more free speech That's just not true. The West hoped that would be the case when Xi took charge, but it's gone in the opposite direction since then. How many chat apps can you use where the CCP isn't listening in on your conversation? They practice wide scale censorship on their own social media, Western social media sites are blocked, and important sources of information like Wikipedia and the New York Times are blocked too. https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2018/china https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2018/china > China’s authoritarian regime has become increasingly repressive in recent years. The ruling Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is tightening its control over the media, online speech, religious groups, and civil society associations while undermining already modest rule-of-law reforms.

escape_goat 8y ago

It is misleading to say that "China is getting more free speech," as this phrase conjures notions in the west of unregulated political speech: by anyone, to anyone, for any purpose. In fact, the policy line that has been set forth in China is quite clear, and it does not lead in such a direction.