4 ms·

Yep. But I am not sure what value PDF's add to PS.

by waynecochran 9y ago

jlg23 9y ago
Bread and butter for developers who have to handle them ;)
- waynecochran 9y ago
  PDF is "bread and butter"? There is no fundamental reason why PDF's should be easier to process -- in fact, PS files are far more transparent being simple text files (also capable of holding binary data as well).
  - jlg23 9y ago
    PDFs are hell to process, pretty much like all formats developed by Adobe that evolved through multiple versions... Edit: I wrote parsers for PDF and PSD in CL years ago and still cringe when remembering that ordeal.
  - dfox 9y ago
    PDF is also plain text file, with one slight caveat that PDF page index contains byte offsets into the file. [Edit: this observation should probably be taken as relative to various other "plain-text with byte offsets as decimal ASCII number" I have seen, with PDF being the most sane from the set of such formats I've seen, with Netscape/Mozilla Mork beeing the most insane]
derrasterpunkt 9y ago
PDF is interpreted PostScript. It is not a programming language as PostScript is. Edit: PostScript has to be interpreted and rendered, PDF only has to rendered. You can't jump to page 100 in a PostScript if you haven't interpreted page 1 to 99 before. A PDF can do that.
- waynecochran 9y ago
  PDF is interpreted too -- actually a subset of PS -- in fact you can write programs that work in PostScript that PDF will not handle in the same transparent way. The PS2PDF translator will have to render those pieces ahead of time -- in PS, the printer can render/interpret the code in a way that is optimal for the printer. That's why I used it. Still, advantage PostScript.
  - derrasterpunkt 9y ago
    You cannot write programs in PDF. As I have written, it is not a programming language. It is already interpreted. For your use-case a PostScript file is better, that's why you used it. But most of the time all graphics for a given page are prerendered and therefore static. If all page content is vector based you can render a PDF in every resolution you need. In my little printing world I like to have control over the page, I don't like that the printer (RIP) can control the page "in a way that is optimal for the printer". I am responsible for the output, not the printer. If something goes wrong inside the RIP, the printer doesn't pay the damages, I am. And things can get costly. It is also pretty resource intensive to work with PS (because it has to be interpreted every time you want to have a look at it). All things considered (and there are a lot more differences) it is simply more pleasant to work with PDF instead of PS. That's why the majority uses it. But it definitely has flaws, too.
fjsolwmv 9y ago
Dumb printer drivers don't print hundreds of pages of source when you send a PDF to print. If you went to college in the 1990s you might remember begging for printer fee refunds.
agumonkey 9y ago
You can read interviews of Adobe's John Warnock about PDF http://www.eprg.org/G53DOC/pdfs/tsr_warnock.pdf http://www.eprg.org/G53DOC/pdfs/tsr_warnock.pdf PDF today might be a monstrosity, but I remember simple reasons for its creation. postscript is turing complete, and less a document. It's like having html replaced by javascript calls to dom.append(<expr>) everywhere. you have to evaluate the whole source to be able to know the actual output, PDF mitigate this by giving static structure (pages etc) so that a program can find its way out of the box. Allowing for showing the page N only, quickly. Such things.

Yep. But I am not sure what value PDF's add to PS.

jlg23 9y ago

Bread and butter for developers who have to handle them ;)

waynecochran 9y ago
PDF is "bread and butter"? There is no fundamental reason why PDF's should be easier to process -- in fact, PS files are far more transparent being simple text files (also capable of holding binary data as well).
- jlg23 9y ago
  PDFs are hell to process, pretty much like all formats developed by Adobe that evolved through multiple versions... Edit: I wrote parsers for PDF and PSD in CL years ago and still cringe when remembering that ordeal.
- dfox 9y ago
  PDF is also plain text file, with one slight caveat that PDF page index contains byte offsets into the file. [Edit: this observation should probably be taken as relative to various other "plain-text with byte offsets as decimal ASCII number" I have seen, with PDF being the most sane from the set of such formats I've seen, with Netscape/Mozilla Mork beeing the most insane]

derrasterpunkt 9y ago

PDF is interpreted PostScript. It is not a programming language as PostScript is. Edit: PostScript has to be interpreted and rendered, PDF only has to rendered. You can't jump to page 100 in a PostScript if you haven't interpreted page 1 to 99 before. A PDF can do that.

waynecochran 9y ago
PDF is interpreted too -- actually a subset of PS -- in fact you can write programs that work in PostScript that PDF will not handle in the same transparent way. The PS2PDF translator will have to render those pieces ahead of time -- in PS, the printer can render/interpret the code in a way that is optimal for the printer. That's why I used it. Still, advantage PostScript.
- derrasterpunkt 9y ago
  You cannot write programs in PDF. As I have written, it is not a programming language. It is already interpreted. For your use-case a PostScript file is better, that's why you used it. But most of the time all graphics for a given page are prerendered and therefore static. If all page content is vector based you can render a PDF in every resolution you need. In my little printing world I like to have control over the page, I don't like that the printer (RIP) can control the page "in a way that is optimal for the printer". I am responsible for the output, not the printer. If something goes wrong inside the RIP, the printer doesn't pay the damages, I am. And things can get costly. It is also pretty resource intensive to work with PS (because it has to be interpreted every time you want to have a look at it). All things considered (and there are a lot more differences) it is simply more pleasant to work with PDF instead of PS. That's why the majority uses it. But it definitely has flaws, too.

fjsolwmv 9y ago

Dumb printer drivers don't print hundreds of pages of source when you send a PDF to print. If you went to college in the 1990s you might remember begging for printer fee refunds.

agumonkey 9y ago

You can read interviews of Adobe's John Warnock about PDF http://www.eprg.org/G53DOC/pdfs/tsr_warnock.pdf http://www.eprg.org/G53DOC/pdfs/tsr_warnock.pdf PDF today might be a monstrosity, but I remember simple reasons for its creation. postscript is turing complete, and less a document. It's like having html replaced by javascript calls to dom.append(<expr>) everywhere. you have to evaluate the whole source to be able to know the actual output, PDF mitigate this by giving static structure (pages etc) so that a program can find its way out of the box. Allowing for showing the page N only, quickly. Such things.