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While the Burning Man experience had been one of the unforgettable for me, I'd spent at least a day there forced to think about economics of it all. The ticket

While the Burning Man experience had been one of the unforgettable for me, I'd spent at least a day there forced to think about economics of it all. The ticket to BM cost big money for most people ($450 + $80 vehicle pass). For example, right now the tickets are priced at $1200 per person at the official website. This is a significant revenues for the organizers with 50,000 attendees. I couldn't wonder but thinking why cost is so high? There is virtually no services provided by the organizers except for portable potties (which BTW stinks all over and is perhaps the biggest factor in ruining the whole experience). Almost all of the labor and even lot of material is provided by largely unpaid volunteers. I understand there is grants made to many artists, but still I'm not sure if some organizers have probably created this whole scheme to make a living out of this. There is not much of an explanation on why tickets are so pricey while number of attendees have kept increasing every year while the costs should have almost remained more or less same because of lack of services. I was also surprised that while folks are encouraged to give and take gifts and keep the whole thing free of cash, there is indeed commercial establishment to serve coffee. Why can't it be made free? A cup of coffee costs less than $1 to make (especially when you have volunteer labor). Even if a person drinks 5 cups a day, 5 times a week - it's still $25. For a ticket that costs $400+ isn't that doable that would allow to make the event truly cashless and keep the spirit of the event?

glenra 9y ago
The cost is high due to basic economics. The BLM permit doesn't allow them to let in as many people as now want to come. When they charged a "reasonable" price all the tickets got bought up instantly and people complained about not being able to get in without paying a ridiculous markup to scalpers. Rather than let resellers reap all the benefit of their event, they charged more the next year (especially for last-minute purchases, which complicate planning) and still sold out. So they kept raising the prices until most of the excess demand had been soaked up. Now people who care a LOT about going to BM pay a high price and/or book early, people who care less are dissuaded by too-high prices, and demand more-or-less matches supply. The extra income means they can spend a bit more on artistic grants to make the event somewhat more worth the high price...and also bump salaries and profits a bit.
jedberg 9y ago
I believe most of the money goes to the Bureau of Land Management, and all the equipment they have to rent for set up, security, and clean up (most at the behest of said Bureau).
- sytelus 9y ago
  Looks like Burning Man pays about $2M to BLM for the event out of their revenues of $12M. So it's like 20% of revenue, not "most" of the revenue. Also, much of the cleaning, setup etc is done by volunteers if I understand correctly. In 2016, BRC paid BLM $2,199,959 to cover the costs of staffing the weeklong arts and lifestyle festival, which also has a set-up, breakdown, and cleanup schedule lasting more than two months. When all stages of the 2016 event were complete, including post-event inspection, the BLM had spent $2,166,127.41 on the event, leaving BRC with a refund of $33,831.59. https://www.blm.gov/press-release/final-cost-recovery-2016-burning-man-event-totals-21-million https://www.blm.gov/press-release/final-cost-recovery-2016-b...
polyomino 9y ago
no need to speculate, the financials are publicly reported: https://annualreport2016.burningman.org/financial-report/ https://annualreport2016.burningman.org/financial-report/ edit: here is a breakdown of expenses from 2016: https://burningman.org/expenses/expenses-2016/ https://burningman.org/expenses/expenses-2016/
- sytelus 9y ago
  For longest time BRC never released salaries of their ranking staff despite of pressure. In their yearly breakdown it can be clearly be seen that "payroll" and "management" is the overwhelmingly biggest component. It should also be noted that revenues have continued to increase massively year or year while cost of the services listed have remained more or less minor bleep on the balance sheet. For an organization with $35M in revenue in just a week and that everyone expects to be open and transparent, there is not much to be said.
  - polyomino 9y ago
    take a look at page 7. https://z9hbb3mwou383x1930ve0ugl-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/BMP-2016-Form-990-Public.pdf https://z9hbb3mwou383x1930ve0ugl-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-...
    - sytelus 9y ago
      That doesn't have any more information. BRC has only agreed to disclose the pay for Jennifer Raiser because according to non-profit rules they had to disclose pay of at least one main person. She is treasurer making $111K. Not bad for a employee organizing once a year single week event, especially when the organizers asks everyone else to be volunteer. I've been part of several non-profits where treasurers were volunteers and got paid exactly $0 for year around activities. Despite of constant asks over the years, BRC has not agreed to breakdown their "payroll" category of expenses which is left to imagination for what goes to temporary staff vs BRC people. These secrets I would least expect from great non-profits let alone from Burning Man founders.
aurelius12 9y ago
Most tickets are priced at $425. The $1200 tickets are for people who can afford them but couldn't get them at $425. Some of the $$ from the $1200 ones goes to support the low-income ticket program fwiw. I will say, if using a portapotty "ruins" the experience for you, you're going to be better off going to an event where you can stay in a hotel, vs a big camping trip to the desert.
- mcv 9y ago
  > I will say, if using a portapotty "ruins" the experience for you, you're going to be better off going to an event where you can stay in a hotel, vs a big camping trip to the desert. Or better: if using a portapotty ruins it for you, contribute a better toilet. I bet lots of people will be very thankful for that.
- sytelus 9y ago
  I have heard same sentiment from other defensive folks. My argument is that when most people are paying $450 for a ticket, organizers ought to provide better solution for toilet. I am not asking for more services or 5-Star hotel grade services. Just something that is less stinky, more hygienic. In the financial disclosure by BRC, you would notice that a very tiny fraction of the revenues goes to low-income subsides (it’s essentially first block of $80 tickets) and artists grants. Even tinier fraction goes to providing toilets. Most of the money goes to “payroll” which remains undisclosed.
alexashka 9y ago
Poor people are so often indignant - little do they know they're indignant because they are surrounded by people who think just like them. Crabs in a bucket [0]. The sad thing is - they're not upset that the system as a whole perhaps sucks - just that somebody has it better. So selfish. When they are gifted a chance to experience something different, they can't help themselves, their indignation shines through even then! That's your post in a nutshell. People who are happy, people who've worked their way into money, success, etc, want you to succeed too - so that you don't waste your life on petty things like 'coffee should've been free'. It is just so incredibly hard to get through to you when you're disempowered, stuck in negativity. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality
- meowface 9y ago
  This isn't about what someone can afford. It's that an event focused entirely around charity and anti-capitalism is supposedly ripping people off and not using their revenue to improve the experience for attendees. You, I, and probably most people in this thread can afford a ticket and a cup of coffee. You're missing the point.
vertexFarm 9y ago
This is a real downside of the festival. Just how financially burdensome it is filters and restricts the kinds of perspectives and culture that can enter. It's not just the ticket cost. It's the travel, the ability to leave work, family, and other obligations for so long, the typical costs of costumes and art projects and camp setup, the consumables... for fortunate attendees, these issues are trivial enough to perhaps not even notice. Most people are completely excluded by this. The cult of positivity will want to justify and explain this away, but sometimes it's important to allow oneself to confront the negative things in life. Don't just blame the poor. I highly recommend regional burns as a cheaper and more accessible alternative to Burning Man, which has been poisoned in many ways by its reputation as a club for the independently wealthy. A lot of people in attendance don't consider themselves that well off, but you really are if you can take that hit without consequences. I think the regional burns really follow the intent and aspirations of Larry Harvey more closely than the big burn. But if you can afford it, definitely go to Burning Man and have a good time.
- soylentcola 9y ago
  Can confirm how awesome regional burns can be. I've never been to the "big burn", mainly because the expense and distance would make it very difficult for me to attend and actually participate in any meaningful way. I live on the east coast of the US (can't imagine how much harder this would be for someone who doesn't even live on the same continent) and while I could probably budget the money and time to attend, it would be prohibitively expensive to bring much in the way of a camp. But I've attended probably 10 or so burns of varying sizes on the east coast and I truly love doing so. It's still an undertaking but I've been able to collaborate with friends (as well as make lots of new ones) to run theme camps. It's an awesome outlet for our creative and armchair engineering efforts and with so many people from different backgrounds, there's so much to learn and be inspired by. Just seeing some of the great ideas people come up with has helped me to become more confident in trying out ideas that otherwise would have never gone past the brainstorm phase. It may sound a bit rude, but when I see the art projects and interactive games and installations or just fun things to do, I think "these are just other regular chumps like me...so why the hell can't I do something cool for once??" I think of it sort of like playing an instrument or singing. At some point, there can be validation and motivation to be found in performing in front of an audience. It gets you to practice and refine. It makes you feel good to share with folks who appreciate your efforts. And at burns, I can chat with people who think our interactive lights are awesome or are thrilled that we brought our karaoke gear out into the woods, or are eternally grateful that we are frying up wings and fries for anyone in need of a hot snack at 1am. Then you multiply this by hundreds of people who also create spaces to dance, lounge, eat, chat, interact, play, or gape in amazement at what you can build when you get a bunch of nerds and hippies and engineers and chefs and artists and musicians (and just random people who didn't even know they had a talent) into the same space. It's like summer camp for grownups. It's tons of work and tons of fun and I can't think of much else I've done that begins to touch the positive takeaway I bring home after each one (even if it's just learning my limitations).
ironjunkie 9y ago
I never went to burning man, but I definitely want to attend one of those years. That being said, I cannot stand the Koolaid that you basically hear from everyone coming back from Burning man. It usually breaks down to the fact that Burning man is a perfect inclusive society and that everyone loves happy there without money and that's what society should be. SURE, but never forget that the extremmely vast majority of the people at Burning man are rich yuppies from San Francisco or Bohemians//Artists that managed to find a way to live on the cheap. I'm pretty sure you will not find a lot of representation of average americans that can get only 10 days off a year. I would love to live the experience of it, but let's not forget what it is. A yuppie festival mainly targeted at the richest part of society
- nojvek 9y ago
  It is weird, kind of reflects SF city vibes at times. Lots of money, large income gaps, insane creativity, drugs, non functioning management, quite dirty and disguising in some places, yet somethings totally blow your mind. A rich yippie paradise indeed.
tomcam 9y ago
It would seem you haven’t done a lot of event planning. If I am wrong, I am sure Burning Man would love for you to come up with an alternate budget. Managing that many people in a space that large for so many days requires world class planning, insurance, expenses, and logistics.
- sytelus 9y ago
  Burning Man is volunteer driven event. Virtually everyone managing anything there signed up to do that free of charge. The entire idea is about army of free workers coming out to essentially self-manage. There are only few things organizers are actually involved in: getting permits from BLM, arranging porta potties, artists grants, website, center stage, coffee serving and volunteer signups.

glenra 9y ago

The cost is high due to basic economics. The BLM permit doesn't allow them to let in as many people as now want to come. When they charged a "reasonable" price all the tickets got bought up instantly and people complained about not being able to get in without paying a ridiculous markup to scalpers. Rather than let resellers reap all the benefit of their event, they charged more the next year (especially for last-minute purchases, which complicate planning) and still sold out. So they kept raising the prices until most of the excess demand had been soaked up. Now people who care a LOT about going to BM pay a high price and/or book early, people who care less are dissuaded by too-high prices, and demand more-or-less matches supply. The extra income means they can spend a bit more on artistic grants to make the event somewhat more worth the high price...and also bump salaries and profits a bit.

jedberg 9y ago

I believe most of the money goes to the Bureau of Land Management, and all the equipment they have to rent for set up, security, and clean up (most at the behest of said Bureau).

sytelus 9y ago
Looks like Burning Man pays about $2M to BLM for the event out of their revenues of $12M. So it's like 20% of revenue, not "most" of the revenue. Also, much of the cleaning, setup etc is done by volunteers if I understand correctly. In 2016, BRC paid BLM $2,199,959 to cover the costs of staffing the weeklong arts and lifestyle festival, which also has a set-up, breakdown, and cleanup schedule lasting more than two months. When all stages of the 2016 event were complete, including post-event inspection, the BLM had spent $2,166,127.41 on the event, leaving BRC with a refund of $33,831.59. https://www.blm.gov/press-release/final-cost-recovery-2016-burning-man-event-totals-21-million https://www.blm.gov/press-release/final-cost-recovery-2016-b...

polyomino 9y ago

no need to speculate, the financials are publicly reported: https://annualreport2016.burningman.org/financial-report/ https://annualreport2016.burningman.org/financial-report/ edit: here is a breakdown of expenses from 2016: https://burningman.org/expenses/expenses-2016/ https://burningman.org/expenses/expenses-2016/

sytelus 9y ago
For longest time BRC never released salaries of their ranking staff despite of pressure. In their yearly breakdown it can be clearly be seen that "payroll" and "management" is the overwhelmingly biggest component. It should also be noted that revenues have continued to increase massively year or year while cost of the services listed have remained more or less minor bleep on the balance sheet. For an organization with $35M in revenue in just a week and that everyone expects to be open and transparent, there is not much to be said.
- polyomino 9y ago
  take a look at page 7. https://z9hbb3mwou383x1930ve0ugl-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/BMP-2016-Form-990-Public.pdf https://z9hbb3mwou383x1930ve0ugl-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-...
  - sytelus 9y ago
    That doesn't have any more information. BRC has only agreed to disclose the pay for Jennifer Raiser because according to non-profit rules they had to disclose pay of at least one main person. She is treasurer making $111K. Not bad for a employee organizing once a year single week event, especially when the organizers asks everyone else to be volunteer. I've been part of several non-profits where treasurers were volunteers and got paid exactly $0 for year around activities. Despite of constant asks over the years, BRC has not agreed to breakdown their "payroll" category of expenses which is left to imagination for what goes to temporary staff vs BRC people. These secrets I would least expect from great non-profits let alone from Burning Man founders.

aurelius12 9y ago

Most tickets are priced at $425. The $1200 tickets are for people who can afford them but couldn't get them at $425. Some of the $$ from the $1200 ones goes to support the low-income ticket program fwiw. I will say, if using a portapotty "ruins" the experience for you, you're going to be better off going to an event where you can stay in a hotel, vs a big camping trip to the desert.

mcv 9y ago
> I will say, if using a portapotty "ruins" the experience for you, you're going to be better off going to an event where you can stay in a hotel, vs a big camping trip to the desert. Or better: if using a portapotty ruins it for you, contribute a better toilet. I bet lots of people will be very thankful for that.
sytelus 9y ago
I have heard same sentiment from other defensive folks. My argument is that when most people are paying $450 for a ticket, organizers ought to provide better solution for toilet. I am not asking for more services or 5-Star hotel grade services. Just something that is less stinky, more hygienic. In the financial disclosure by BRC, you would notice that a very tiny fraction of the revenues goes to low-income subsides (it’s essentially first block of $80 tickets) and artists grants. Even tinier fraction goes to providing toilets. Most of the money goes to “payroll” which remains undisclosed.

alexashka 9y ago

Poor people are so often indignant - little do they know they're indignant because they are surrounded by people who think just like them. Crabs in a bucket [0]. The sad thing is - they're not upset that the system as a whole perhaps sucks - just that somebody has it better. So selfish. When they are gifted a chance to experience something different, they can't help themselves, their indignation shines through even then! That's your post in a nutshell. People who are happy, people who've worked their way into money, success, etc, want you to succeed too - so that you don't waste your life on petty things like 'coffee should've been free'. It is just so incredibly hard to get through to you when you're disempowered, stuck in negativity. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

meowface 9y ago
This isn't about what someone can afford. It's that an event focused entirely around charity and anti-capitalism is supposedly ripping people off and not using their revenue to improve the experience for attendees. You, I, and probably most people in this thread can afford a ticket and a cup of coffee. You're missing the point.

vertexFarm 9y ago

This is a real downside of the festival. Just how financially burdensome it is filters and restricts the kinds of perspectives and culture that can enter. It's not just the ticket cost. It's the travel, the ability to leave work, family, and other obligations for so long, the typical costs of costumes and art projects and camp setup, the consumables... for fortunate attendees, these issues are trivial enough to perhaps not even notice. Most people are completely excluded by this. The cult of positivity will want to justify and explain this away, but sometimes it's important to allow oneself to confront the negative things in life. Don't just blame the poor. I highly recommend regional burns as a cheaper and more accessible alternative to Burning Man, which has been poisoned in many ways by its reputation as a club for the independently wealthy. A lot of people in attendance don't consider themselves that well off, but you really are if you can take that hit without consequences. I think the regional burns really follow the intent and aspirations of Larry Harvey more closely than the big burn. But if you can afford it, definitely go to Burning Man and have a good time.

soylentcola 9y ago
Can confirm how awesome regional burns can be. I've never been to the "big burn", mainly because the expense and distance would make it very difficult for me to attend and actually participate in any meaningful way. I live on the east coast of the US (can't imagine how much harder this would be for someone who doesn't even live on the same continent) and while I could probably budget the money and time to attend, it would be prohibitively expensive to bring much in the way of a camp. But I've attended probably 10 or so burns of varying sizes on the east coast and I truly love doing so. It's still an undertaking but I've been able to collaborate with friends (as well as make lots of new ones) to run theme camps. It's an awesome outlet for our creative and armchair engineering efforts and with so many people from different backgrounds, there's so much to learn and be inspired by. Just seeing some of the great ideas people come up with has helped me to become more confident in trying out ideas that otherwise would have never gone past the brainstorm phase. It may sound a bit rude, but when I see the art projects and interactive games and installations or just fun things to do, I think "these are just other regular chumps like me...so why the hell can't I do something cool for once??" I think of it sort of like playing an instrument or singing. At some point, there can be validation and motivation to be found in performing in front of an audience. It gets you to practice and refine. It makes you feel good to share with folks who appreciate your efforts. And at burns, I can chat with people who think our interactive lights are awesome or are thrilled that we brought our karaoke gear out into the woods, or are eternally grateful that we are frying up wings and fries for anyone in need of a hot snack at 1am. Then you multiply this by hundreds of people who also create spaces to dance, lounge, eat, chat, interact, play, or gape in amazement at what you can build when you get a bunch of nerds and hippies and engineers and chefs and artists and musicians (and just random people who didn't even know they had a talent) into the same space. It's like summer camp for grownups. It's tons of work and tons of fun and I can't think of much else I've done that begins to touch the positive takeaway I bring home after each one (even if it's just learning my limitations).

ironjunkie 9y ago

I never went to burning man, but I definitely want to attend one of those years. That being said, I cannot stand the Koolaid that you basically hear from everyone coming back from Burning man. It usually breaks down to the fact that Burning man is a perfect inclusive society and that everyone loves happy there without money and that's what society should be. SURE, but never forget that the extremmely vast majority of the people at Burning man are rich yuppies from San Francisco or Bohemians//Artists that managed to find a way to live on the cheap. I'm pretty sure you will not find a lot of representation of average americans that can get only 10 days off a year. I would love to live the experience of it, but let's not forget what it is. A yuppie festival mainly targeted at the richest part of society

nojvek 9y ago
It is weird, kind of reflects SF city vibes at times. Lots of money, large income gaps, insane creativity, drugs, non functioning management, quite dirty and disguising in some places, yet somethings totally blow your mind. A rich yippie paradise indeed.

tomcam 9y ago

It would seem you haven’t done a lot of event planning. If I am wrong, I am sure Burning Man would love for you to come up with an alternate budget. Managing that many people in a space that large for so many days requires world class planning, insurance, expenses, and logistics.

sytelus 9y ago
Burning Man is volunteer driven event. Virtually everyone managing anything there signed up to do that free of charge. The entire idea is about army of free workers coming out to essentially self-manage. There are only few things organizers are actually involved in: getting permits from BLM, arranging porta potties, artists grants, website, center stage, coffee serving and volunteer signups.