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The author is surprised that people defend Apple even though they “know that Apple has screwed them”. That sounds odd to me. I know a lot of people who own Appl

by baxtr 9y ago

The author is surprised that people defend Apple even though they “know that Apple has screwed them”. That sounds odd to me. I know a lot of people who own Apple devices and a lot of them had problems. But no own ever said that “Apple screwed” them. In fact, many of them get their devices handled/repaired by Apple in a good manner. No company is perfect. Apple makes mistakes. But in my perception they deal well with their mistakes and are not shy to admit.

legitster 9y ago
Selection bias - he only sees the failures.
- iforgotpassword 9y ago
  he's not apple only, so he can compare to non-apple devices people bring in.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    Non-Apple devices come in tiny production runs. Dell e.g. has 100 different models each year -- each representing a small sliver of the overall units sold. So if a problem surfaces with one, it doesn't matter as much to as many customers. Plus, other companies don't push the envelope and move to new technologies as fast, or use as specialized parts. They just throw some off the shelve components as is in their branded box -- with Apple half of the box components is custom.
    - Nullabillity 9y ago
      > Dell e.g. has 100 different models each year -- each representing a small sliver of the overall units sold. So if a problem surfaces with one, it doesn't matter as much to as many customers. So Dell does a much better job at mitigating failure. Sounds like Apple has a lot to learn here. > Plus, other companies don't push the envelope and move to new technologies as fast, or use as specialized parts. They just throw some off the shelve components as is in their branded box -- with Apple half of the box components is custom. Specialized parts are a liability, not an asset. How do you replace a broken component that only Apple makes, which they refuse to sell separately?
      - coldtea 9y ago
        >So Dell does a much better job at mitigating failure. Sounds like Apple has a lot to learn here. Or, you know, it's a tradeoff for a more streamline product line, that's less confusing to users, and can pack more for more general cases. >Specialized parts are a liability, not an asset. How do you replace a broken component that only Apple makes, which they refuse to sell separately? It's almost as if that is also a tradeoff, between having unique features that others don't and more control of integration, vs the ability to replace commodity parts. What part of the idea of tradeoffs don't people understand? As for whether people agree to said tradeoffs, well, being the #1 company is units and profit in the world, means people want what's on offer. P.S. Not to mention that in fact in the past Apple was even more exclusive with their parts (e.g. PowerPC vs Intel).
    - Shikadi 9y ago
      No, other companies push the envelope. Touch screens and 360 hinges and fingerprint readers to name a few. Plus most motherboards in laptops are custom designed as well. Dell always designs the cooling system differently to try and be quiet but cheap for their desktops, I could go on but I'd rather just close by saying Apple isn't the only one who uses custom parts. Off the shelf to custom ratio is probably pretty close to the other big players.
- camillomiller 9y ago
  Although I think the video has a point for some cases, I think you’re also right. My selection bias, for example, is the opposite. I had my iMac 27” repaired three times in 2013 for a SINGLE faulty pixel. Under Apple Care (which was less than 10% the cost of the machine when I bought it), a technician was coming to my place with a new screen and replace it on the spot. Amazing service. Unfortunately I kept on getting a screen replacement with faulty pixel (apparently not so rare in such a big screen, plus the replacement part was probably reconditioned) so the technician kept on coming from 200km away with a new part. In the end it took three shots to get the replacement right. I’ve read how much each intervention cost to Apple in the repair bills he technician would leave to me as a receipt: 700$ each (560€). Never paid a dime. Make it times three and you’ll find out Apple spent almost as much as the cost of my iMac to get the repair right. In 2016 my ex-gf the screen of my iPhone by dropping a mignon of vodka on it from the kitchen shelf. Screen was destroyed completely and I feared for the repairability of the phone itself. I brought it the Apple Store in Berlin for a regular paid screen or phone replacement. The Genius stopped me as I was telling him what happened and inspected the phone: “do you see this half-moon thing inside the front camera? It’s an hardware problem and we have a replacement program for that. Your phone is eligible for free replcement”. 10 minutes after I walked out with a brand new (reconditioned) iPhone, as If I chose the full replacement, without forking out a single dime. I told about the replacement program to all my friend with an iPhone 6s or 6. I think at least three of them got a new phone out of an old one, no matter how used or fucked up their phone was. One of them had dropped it and the phone screen was barely holdin together as well. Does this make me an Apple shill?
  - ksec 9y ago
    I have never heard a single good case of Apple services in Japan or HK. Most of those amazing services story are from US, few from EU.
    - camillomiller 9y ago
      First story was Italy, not exactly a Tier 1 country for Apple. Second story was Germany.
  - 9y ago
mediocrejoker 9y ago
I think all technology products have a certain percentage of devices that will fail prematurely. I think a lot of people by Apple products because when their device fails they can take it back to a store run by the same people who manufactured and sold it to them to get it serviced.
- detaro 9y ago
  All professional-type laptops have professional support infrastructure though, doesn't matter if it's Apple, HP, Dell or Lenovo, I'll find an authorized repair place in the closest bigger city. If anything, Apple falls out of line negatively since they don't do much in the way of on-site repairs.
Washuu 9y ago
Apple screwed me. It took seven years to get my 2007 Mac Pro repaired properly. It was a common issue with the Radeon graphics cards being defective. They went down their typical deny for eternity route, law suit, and finally offer to replace the parts well after the units were obsolete. Apple screwed me. My 2007 Macbook Pro died due to issues with the nVidia graphics chip desoldering itself. Again they went down the deny forever route, another law suit, and finally they quietly posted a recall notice on their web site that I missed the deadline on by a few days.
- bayofpigs 9y ago
  Same with my 2007 MBP. They did eventually replace the motherboard based on the recall but afterwords the DVD player didn't read consistently (but didn't notice till months later) and one of the speakers went out. Also stopped using it for heavy video applications in fear it would happen again.
f00_ 9y ago
I haven't actually read the article, just thought you'd be interested in Mariana Mazzucato's discussion of Apple in The Entrepreneurial State "which argues that the United States' economic success is a result of public and state funded investments in innovation and technology, rather than a result of the small state, free market doctrine that often receives credit for the country's strong economy." I just think it's crazy how much public subsidy went into creating Apple, and yet they're still seeking tax havens like Ireland socialize the losses, privatize the profits i guess
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago
  What Apple losses have been socialized?
  - y4mi 9y ago
    he's talking about infrastructure (streets, trains, water, ...) and similar. all the stuff you're supposed to pay taxes for...
    - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
      I understood the first part but that isn't the same as socialising losses. This isn't the same as bailing out a failing bank because it's too big to fail.
  - ric2b 9y ago
    All the research they get for free that is funded with public money might be one.
dschuetz 9y ago
> I know a lot of people who own Apple devices and a lot of them had problems. But no own ever said that “Apple screwed” them. That's the point he makes in this video. People pay $2k+ and still have to pay for repairs of greatly designed and poorly engineered products. Seriously, that's a commonly known practice called rip-off. I simply cannot understand people's minds defending Apple's engineering. It's an incomprehensible cognitive dissonance. Apple designs great products, sure, why not. But when engineering decisions have to take a seat behind design decisions? The fanboys see just the great product and irrationally defend any criticism on bad engineering. Sorry, that's just silly.
- willtim 9y ago
  Often it's the ideas that are the cause of the problems, for example: magsafe required an extremely thin cable leading to fray (85 UK pounds for a new adapter), or the "magic mouse" that required raising ones right finger in order to left click. The new super-shallow keyboard is the latest flawed idea. Luckily my wife hasn't got one of those.
  - dschuetz 9y ago
    You see, that's my point. When products are super-designed to the extent that excellent (thus very expensive) engineering is required to make them last longer, Apple does an excellent job keeping the engineering budget low. While keeping the design strategy constant: thinner, lighter, finer. At some point Apple hits a breaking point (those in the videos). Their handling of the problems is highly questionable, because they chose design over good and lasting engineering and refuse to take the responsibility. Apple products are throw-away products nowadays. Yet they refuse to admit even that (they built even a recycling robot for their devices!).
iforgotpassword 9y ago
> In fact, many of them get their devices handled/repaired by Apple in a good manner. In fact, many get an ok repair for a trivial problem being charged a fortune, while just as many simply dont, because apple stores have very strict rules what they're allowed to repair and what not. my wife had a sim card stuck in her iphone 4 or 5 once. they took the phone, returned after 20 minutes and said they couldnt fix it and offered a ridiculous discount if she'd buy a new iphone instead. she declined and we took it to some shady local repair shop. the guy took it into his back office and returned after 5 minutes with the card removed. charged 25 bucks. and i get why people compare apple to religion. that fucking apple store was built like a temple, you had these superior 'geniuses' running around, an overly fancy waiting area. i see how it gives apple fans their fix making them willing to pay anything. it was the first and only time i set foot in one of their stores.
rajacombinator 9y ago
They have generations of mbps they shipped with faulty fry-prone gpus. (Amongst other horrific screwups.) They get a pass because iPhones look nice.
- digi_owl 9y ago
  And having sold the "owners" of their products on the idea that owning Apple makes them "special".
  - coldtea 9y ago
    It seems it's the "owners" of other products that need to remind people how special they are for not owning Apple products. And that when non-Apple stuff represents like 80% of the PC market. Such "non conformity". Stick it to the man!
- coldtea 9y ago
  >They get a pass because iPhones look nice. And also because of the whole, first such device of its class available, Android took a year to even emerge, first to create a huge app market that's not crap (like Windows mobile of yore, Palm, and Java ME apps), and so on things...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - lern_too_spel 9y ago
    RCA made the first mass produced TV set. That doesn't mean RCA panels today get a pass. Apple's devices have been eclipsed by better alternatives for years now.
agumonkey 9y ago
It's a complex case. L.R. is probably especially disappointed by the luxury price. But apart from that, I'm sure all other manufacturers are as bad as Apple to deal with failures. Actually, I'd bet a dollar that most of them don't give a crap.. (the nvidia gpu problem affected everybody, and they all refused to repair most machines). Their machine are either covered a bit, and a replaced quickly or people just fall off warranty and will by another packardbell~ machine on deal at the mall. We'd have to see how the pro lines are handled (I never had a pro hp and dell machine so I cant say, but it's possible they're quicker to repair it.[1] On the other hand, Apple has the magic touch... and it's not all fluff, it's only partly fluff, and still above the magic threshold, that's why people still root for them. The vertical integration is felt when you use it, it's so much leaner than most windows machines. They give you a little piece of tech art, and not some plastic gizmo. They catter to a lot of details other manufacturers don't. Kinda like mercedes vs tesla. Lots of people complained about bits of comfort that are surely not important, but this is the extra mile that people are paying for. I knew a guy who was anti apple (walled garden, proprietary etc), he touched an ipad and grunted, asked him why he was angry, "it's so much better than everything else" he said sadly. I was playing with motorola flagship android 3 tablet that was released quite some time after the ipad IIRC, yet everything lagged even for basic camera usage.. Users notice that quickly. [1] also, having dismantled a few printers, I've seen how pro lines have way more thoughtful design. It's paradoxically a much cheaper product to make, because it needs fewer parts and are so easy to fix.
coldtea 9y ago
>The author is surprised that people defend Apple even though they “know that Apple has screwed them”. Well, there's always the relative amount of value they get out of Apple's products vs the amount of how much Apple screwed them. The balance can still come out positive. I've used Windows for 25+ years, Macs for 15 or so, Linux for 18-19 years -- and still use those things everyday (Linux professionally and for home use). The productivity I get out of an OS X box trumps having to pay $300 to have some faulty part replaced that Apple should have replaced themselves anyway for a $3.5K laptop (which has happened to me a couple of times in the 15+ years I've used Apple laptops). That said, I do both programming in UNIX like environment, and video editing, and write music (as a hobby) with DAWs and such. Someone who just needs a terminal or Word or just Premiere etc might be able to get by with another platform. And of course I've been burned by IBM BS hard disks (and HDs from many other manufactures), AMD CPUs, and tons of other brands and third party products.
ekianjo 9y ago
> In fact, many of them get their devices handled/repaired by Apple in a good manner. Did you watch the video in full? The examples of Apple screwing its customers are numerous.

by baxtr 9y ago

legitster 9y ago

Selection bias - he only sees the failures.

iforgotpassword 9y ago
he's not apple only, so he can compare to non-apple devices people bring in.
- coldtea 9y ago
  Non-Apple devices come in tiny production runs. Dell e.g. has 100 different models each year -- each representing a small sliver of the overall units sold. So if a problem surfaces with one, it doesn't matter as much to as many customers. Plus, other companies don't push the envelope and move to new technologies as fast, or use as specialized parts. They just throw some off the shelve components as is in their branded box -- with Apple half of the box components is custom.
  - Nullabillity 9y ago
    > Dell e.g. has 100 different models each year -- each representing a small sliver of the overall units sold. So if a problem surfaces with one, it doesn't matter as much to as many customers. So Dell does a much better job at mitigating failure. Sounds like Apple has a lot to learn here. > Plus, other companies don't push the envelope and move to new technologies as fast, or use as specialized parts. They just throw some off the shelve components as is in their branded box -- with Apple half of the box components is custom. Specialized parts are a liability, not an asset. How do you replace a broken component that only Apple makes, which they refuse to sell separately?
    - coldtea 9y ago
      >So Dell does a much better job at mitigating failure. Sounds like Apple has a lot to learn here. Or, you know, it's a tradeoff for a more streamline product line, that's less confusing to users, and can pack more for more general cases. >Specialized parts are a liability, not an asset. How do you replace a broken component that only Apple makes, which they refuse to sell separately? It's almost as if that is also a tradeoff, between having unique features that others don't and more control of integration, vs the ability to replace commodity parts. What part of the idea of tradeoffs don't people understand? As for whether people agree to said tradeoffs, well, being the #1 company is units and profit in the world, means people want what's on offer. P.S. Not to mention that in fact in the past Apple was even more exclusive with their parts (e.g. PowerPC vs Intel).
  - Shikadi 9y ago
    No, other companies push the envelope. Touch screens and 360 hinges and fingerprint readers to name a few. Plus most motherboards in laptops are custom designed as well. Dell always designs the cooling system differently to try and be quiet but cheap for their desktops, I could go on but I'd rather just close by saying Apple isn't the only one who uses custom parts. Off the shelf to custom ratio is probably pretty close to the other big players.
camillomiller 9y ago
Although I think the video has a point for some cases, I think you’re also right. My selection bias, for example, is the opposite. I had my iMac 27” repaired three times in 2013 for a SINGLE faulty pixel. Under Apple Care (which was less than 10% the cost of the machine when I bought it), a technician was coming to my place with a new screen and replace it on the spot. Amazing service. Unfortunately I kept on getting a screen replacement with faulty pixel (apparently not so rare in such a big screen, plus the replacement part was probably reconditioned) so the technician kept on coming from 200km away with a new part. In the end it took three shots to get the replacement right. I’ve read how much each intervention cost to Apple in the repair bills he technician would leave to me as a receipt: 700$ each (560€). Never paid a dime. Make it times three and you’ll find out Apple spent almost as much as the cost of my iMac to get the repair right. In 2016 my ex-gf the screen of my iPhone by dropping a mignon of vodka on it from the kitchen shelf. Screen was destroyed completely and I feared for the repairability of the phone itself. I brought it the Apple Store in Berlin for a regular paid screen or phone replacement. The Genius stopped me as I was telling him what happened and inspected the phone: “do you see this half-moon thing inside the front camera? It’s an hardware problem and we have a replacement program for that. Your phone is eligible for free replcement”. 10 minutes after I walked out with a brand new (reconditioned) iPhone, as If I chose the full replacement, without forking out a single dime. I told about the replacement program to all my friend with an iPhone 6s or 6. I think at least three of them got a new phone out of an old one, no matter how used or fucked up their phone was. One of them had dropped it and the phone screen was barely holdin together as well. Does this make me an Apple shill?
- ksec 9y ago
  I have never heard a single good case of Apple services in Japan or HK. Most of those amazing services story are from US, few from EU.
  - camillomiller 9y ago
    First story was Italy, not exactly a Tier 1 country for Apple. Second story was Germany.
- 9y ago

mediocrejoker 9y ago

I think all technology products have a certain percentage of devices that will fail prematurely. I think a lot of people by Apple products because when their device fails they can take it back to a store run by the same people who manufactured and sold it to them to get it serviced.

detaro 9y ago
All professional-type laptops have professional support infrastructure though, doesn't matter if it's Apple, HP, Dell or Lenovo, I'll find an authorized repair place in the closest bigger city. If anything, Apple falls out of line negatively since they don't do much in the way of on-site repairs.

Washuu 9y ago

Apple screwed me. It took seven years to get my 2007 Mac Pro repaired properly. It was a common issue with the Radeon graphics cards being defective. They went down their typical deny for eternity route, law suit, and finally offer to replace the parts well after the units were obsolete. Apple screwed me. My 2007 Macbook Pro died due to issues with the nVidia graphics chip desoldering itself. Again they went down the deny forever route, another law suit, and finally they quietly posted a recall notice on their web site that I missed the deadline on by a few days.

bayofpigs 9y ago
Same with my 2007 MBP. They did eventually replace the motherboard based on the recall but afterwords the DVD player didn't read consistently (but didn't notice till months later) and one of the speakers went out. Also stopped using it for heavy video applications in fear it would happen again.

f00_ 9y ago

I haven't actually read the article, just thought you'd be interested in Mariana Mazzucato's discussion of Apple in The Entrepreneurial State "which argues that the United States' economic success is a result of public and state funded investments in innovation and technology, rather than a result of the small state, free market doctrine that often receives credit for the country's strong economy." I just think it's crazy how much public subsidy went into creating Apple, and yet they're still seeking tax havens like Ireland socialize the losses, privatize the profits i guess

tonyedgecombe 9y ago
What Apple losses have been socialized?
- y4mi 9y ago
  he's talking about infrastructure (streets, trains, water, ...) and similar. all the stuff you're supposed to pay taxes for...
  - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
    I understood the first part but that isn't the same as socialising losses. This isn't the same as bailing out a failing bank because it's too big to fail.
- ric2b 9y ago
  All the research they get for free that is funded with public money might be one.

dschuetz 9y ago

> I know a lot of people who own Apple devices and a lot of them had problems. But no own ever said that “Apple screwed” them. That's the point he makes in this video. People pay $2k+ and still have to pay for repairs of greatly designed and poorly engineered products. Seriously, that's a commonly known practice called rip-off. I simply cannot understand people's minds defending Apple's engineering. It's an incomprehensible cognitive dissonance. Apple designs great products, sure, why not. But when engineering decisions have to take a seat behind design decisions? The fanboys see just the great product and irrationally defend any criticism on bad engineering. Sorry, that's just silly.

willtim 9y ago
Often it's the ideas that are the cause of the problems, for example: magsafe required an extremely thin cable leading to fray (85 UK pounds for a new adapter), or the "magic mouse" that required raising ones right finger in order to left click. The new super-shallow keyboard is the latest flawed idea. Luckily my wife hasn't got one of those.
- dschuetz 9y ago
  You see, that's my point. When products are super-designed to the extent that excellent (thus very expensive) engineering is required to make them last longer, Apple does an excellent job keeping the engineering budget low. While keeping the design strategy constant: thinner, lighter, finer. At some point Apple hits a breaking point (those in the videos). Their handling of the problems is highly questionable, because they chose design over good and lasting engineering and refuse to take the responsibility. Apple products are throw-away products nowadays. Yet they refuse to admit even that (they built even a recycling robot for their devices!).

iforgotpassword 9y ago

> In fact, many of them get their devices handled/repaired by Apple in a good manner. In fact, many get an ok repair for a trivial problem being charged a fortune, while just as many simply dont, because apple stores have very strict rules what they're allowed to repair and what not. my wife had a sim card stuck in her iphone 4 or 5 once. they took the phone, returned after 20 minutes and said they couldnt fix it and offered a ridiculous discount if she'd buy a new iphone instead. she declined and we took it to some shady local repair shop. the guy took it into his back office and returned after 5 minutes with the card removed. charged 25 bucks. and i get why people compare apple to religion. that fucking apple store was built like a temple, you had these superior 'geniuses' running around, an overly fancy waiting area. i see how it gives apple fans their fix making them willing to pay anything. it was the first and only time i set foot in one of their stores.

rajacombinator 9y ago

They have generations of mbps they shipped with faulty fry-prone gpus. (Amongst other horrific screwups.) They get a pass because iPhones look nice.

digi_owl 9y ago
And having sold the "owners" of their products on the idea that owning Apple makes them "special".
- coldtea 9y ago
  It seems it's the "owners" of other products that need to remind people how special they are for not owning Apple products. And that when non-Apple stuff represents like 80% of the PC market. Such "non conformity". Stick it to the man!
coldtea 9y ago
>They get a pass because iPhones look nice. And also because of the whole, first such device of its class available, Android took a year to even emerge, first to create a huge app market that's not crap (like Windows mobile of yore, Palm, and Java ME apps), and so on things...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- lern_too_spel 9y ago
  RCA made the first mass produced TV set. That doesn't mean RCA panels today get a pass. Apple's devices have been eclipsed by better alternatives for years now.

agumonkey 9y ago

It's a complex case. L.R. is probably especially disappointed by the luxury price. But apart from that, I'm sure all other manufacturers are as bad as Apple to deal with failures. Actually, I'd bet a dollar that most of them don't give a crap.. (the nvidia gpu problem affected everybody, and they all refused to repair most machines). Their machine are either covered a bit, and a replaced quickly or people just fall off warranty and will by another packardbell~ machine on deal at the mall. We'd have to see how the pro lines are handled (I never had a pro hp and dell machine so I cant say, but it's possible they're quicker to repair it.[1] On the other hand, Apple has the magic touch... and it's not all fluff, it's only partly fluff, and still above the magic threshold, that's why people still root for them. The vertical integration is felt when you use it, it's so much leaner than most windows machines. They give you a little piece of tech art, and not some plastic gizmo. They catter to a lot of details other manufacturers don't. Kinda like mercedes vs tesla. Lots of people complained about bits of comfort that are surely not important, but this is the extra mile that people are paying for. I knew a guy who was anti apple (walled garden, proprietary etc), he touched an ipad and grunted, asked him why he was angry, "it's so much better than everything else" he said sadly. I was playing with motorola flagship android 3 tablet that was released quite some time after the ipad IIRC, yet everything lagged even for basic camera usage.. Users notice that quickly. [1] also, having dismantled a few printers, I've seen how pro lines have way more thoughtful design. It's paradoxically a much cheaper product to make, because it needs fewer parts and are so easy to fix.

coldtea 9y ago

>The author is surprised that people defend Apple even though they “know that Apple has screwed them”. Well, there's always the relative amount of value they get out of Apple's products vs the amount of how much Apple screwed them. The balance can still come out positive. I've used Windows for 25+ years, Macs for 15 or so, Linux for 18-19 years -- and still use those things everyday (Linux professionally and for home use). The productivity I get out of an OS X box trumps having to pay $300 to have some faulty part replaced that Apple should have replaced themselves anyway for a $3.5K laptop (which has happened to me a couple of times in the 15+ years I've used Apple laptops). That said, I do both programming in UNIX like environment, and video editing, and write music (as a hobby) with DAWs and such. Someone who just needs a terminal or Word or just Premiere etc might be able to get by with another platform. And of course I've been burned by IBM BS hard disks (and HDs from many other manufactures), AMD CPUs, and tons of other brands and third party products.

ekianjo 9y ago

> In fact, many of them get their devices handled/repaired by Apple in a good manner. Did you watch the video in full? The examples of Apple screwing its customers are numerous.