5 ms·

This is a cute story, but for folks considering attending bartering of any kind at the burn is not a thing.

dang 9y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16950705 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16950705 and marked it off-topic.
mlevental 9y ago
umm isn't that exactly the opposite of what you always hear?
- _s 9y ago
  Not quite - giving without any expectation of receiving is very different to bartering.
- sowbug 9y ago
  Money isn't permitted except for the initial tickets, as well as coffee/ice (all of which are sold by the organizers). It's otherwise a gift economy. Reciprocation is fine, except that the initial gift shouldn't be given with the expectation of reciprocation. It's a subtle difference, but it works out OK. Some would probably object to the term "economy" as well -- you're supposed to have arrived with everything you need to survive, so all the exchanging is just for fun.
  - aurelius12 9y ago
    You can also purchase RV pumpouts with cash on the spot, which is not sold by the organizers.
- jwegan 9y ago
  Correct, this is what everyone always hears about Burning Man. However, the idea that bartering happens at Burning Man is the most common misconnection. It is also how you can pick out that someone has never been to Burning Man (at least not recently). I've been 5 years and from what I gather there was some bartering >10 years ago (not sure the exact date, but my impression is it was in the 90s). However, it shifted to a "gifting" economy where you give out gifts with no expectation of return and any Burner who hears that characterized as bartering would be quick to correct you.
  - aurelius12 9y ago
    Yeah, bartering was a 90s thing. I suspect it died out because it's actually a hassle compared to gifting.
nefitty 9y ago
Do you mean there is some kind of rule or law preventing that? Otherwise, it's not appropriate to generalize the microeconomic behavior of a population of 70,000+ (2017 attendance estimate).
- bdcs 9y ago
  There is no rule. Any attendee is free to barter! I will say in my experience (and second-hand experience with hundreds if not thousands of participants), that there is literally zero* bartering. And, furthermore, many (cf ~all) people would be aghast at any sort of quid pro quo exchange. Read the last paragraph from the parent stating they would not return without a large presentation/gift. This captures the spirit/zeitgeist/culture of burning man! * I have seen some bartering with illicit substances to prove one isn't a law enforcement officer, but the barter amounts to "show me you have some money, even a few cents, and I'll trade you immeasurable money"
  - taurath 9y ago
    That’s funny, but goes to show that everyone’s experience is what they make of it. My camp one year traded a bunch of alcohol for a keg and first dibs on some grilled cheese. For each it’s own.
  - wjnc 9y ago
    In a recent EconTalk episode, the CEO of Burning Man [1] says otherwise. They even try to police bartering, based on tips from the community. [1] http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2018/01/marian_goodell.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2018/01/marian_goodell.html
    - mgce 9y ago
      More context from your link: "it used to happen more in the early years--certainly in the early 2000s when, frankly, when the dot-com concept was coming to life, one of the things we would see which was a little related to Gifting and a little related to Decommodification is, we would see camps have logos from their start-up in front of their camp." The point is that Burning Man's community is not built around transactional experience, and that value shines strongly throughout the experience.
throwaway010718 9y ago
You are right about this and we were both surprised at how sober Burning Man was. The media literally used the phrase "drug-fueled orgy" to describe Burning Man that year. Given all the nudity and psychedelic nature of the event I can see how one could come to this conclusion. Well, that and the fact that someone probably re-gifted our drug-laced snack for a masturbation session. Seriously there was an actual tent where you could trade snacks, pancakes, whatever, for a hand-job. Jeez, why did you have to derail an intentionally sentimental comment by mocking it as "cute".
- nasredin 9y ago
  Thanks for the info. IMHO a snack or a couple of pancakes for a handjob is a good deal. You pay more than a breakfast at IHOP for that kind of happy ending here.
- localhost3000 9y ago
  It was a great comment, thanks for sharing.
- srge 9y ago
  That was a great story and I did not like it called cute. Thank you for sharing.
- bredren 9y ago
  Intentionally sentimental, indeed. The first thing you do here is elevate your 'engineer work ethic' above your brother who is merely an artist. You go on to describe how your brother did all this nice stuff for you and didn't judge you despite you doing nothing to prepare and coming to the event as a spectator. You mention how for the first time ever you realize maybe you aren't that important to society. How surprising it is to find out maybe you aren't the most well-rounded person ever. Like a 30 minute sitcom you wrap up your story saying your relationship with your brother is now a team of equals due to the experience. What was your brother's growth in this little story? That his big important engineer brother might not look down on him now? Are you really a changed person due to this one week experience? Someone who doesn't measure their life value by their engineering contributions, who respects artists and their lifestyle? Is that the story you are telling? On top of that, being top comment means this will undoubtedly influence HN readers to ask themselves, "What a nice story. Maybe I should go to Burning Man this year. Maybe people will accept me as a spectator and I will be fine going in with no preparation and have some major philosophical realization about myself." So I'm reading this episode of Friends comment, hoping you at least do some justice to these potential attendees. But, no. After a successful sparkle pony ride down your memory lane you make a point to acknowledge drug use and bartering. Which shows you really don't know how to represent the event and that this is a weak intro to what it is for HN readers considering attendance for the first time. Doubling down by invoking a description by "the media" is fitting. Your story reads as possibly accurate yet wildly incomplete portrayal of your relationship with your brother. To quote another commenter, this was a "great comment" to someone who has never gone to Burning Man and does not have a sibling. Hence, my summary of it as "cute." For folks considering attending Burning Man for the first time here are some things OP missed: 1. Don't show up unprepared. 2. Don't go expecting some kind of breakthrough. Don't go with expectations of any kind. 3. Read the 10 Principals that Larry Harvey wrote in 2004.[1] [1] https://burningman.org/culture/philosophical-center/10-principles/ https://burningman.org/culture/philosophical-center/10-princ...
cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
The HN mod should penalize those who says "this is cute" type of shit as much as they penalize heavy trolling. Actually "cute" is much worse than straightforward trolling, it's passive aggressive in the most pathetic way.
- thisacctforreal 9y ago
  I use cute sincerely quite often, and I think OP did too.
  - cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
    If you use it often AND you think OP used it sincerely, I think you may be unintentionally offending tons of people on HN without realizing. If you want to express sincere compliment, there are many many words that are way better. "cute" is both literally and figuratively offensive. Which adult would like to be called "cute" (unless it's two sexually attracted people talking about each other) even if it was in a positive manner?
  - fiatpandas 9y ago
    Given the context, “cute story” is 100% patronizing / belittling. You need to employ some serious mental gymnastics to believe it’s being used in any other sense.
  - bluntfang 9y ago
    bless your heart..
- srge 9y ago
  I agree
aurelius12 9y ago
That's only sort of true. There are -plenty- of bars out there that will reward you with a drink once you entertain them in some way (flashing them, for instance). But beyond that, it also depends when you're talking about. Bartering preceded gifting culturally at BM, and was definitely a thing in the early to mid 90s.

dang 9y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16950705 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16950705 and marked it off-topic.

mlevental 9y ago

umm isn't that exactly the opposite of what you always hear?

_s 9y ago
Not quite - giving without any expectation of receiving is very different to bartering.
sowbug 9y ago
Money isn't permitted except for the initial tickets, as well as coffee/ice (all of which are sold by the organizers). It's otherwise a gift economy. Reciprocation is fine, except that the initial gift shouldn't be given with the expectation of reciprocation. It's a subtle difference, but it works out OK. Some would probably object to the term "economy" as well -- you're supposed to have arrived with everything you need to survive, so all the exchanging is just for fun.
- aurelius12 9y ago
  You can also purchase RV pumpouts with cash on the spot, which is not sold by the organizers.
jwegan 9y ago
Correct, this is what everyone always hears about Burning Man. However, the idea that bartering happens at Burning Man is the most common misconnection. It is also how you can pick out that someone has never been to Burning Man (at least not recently). I've been 5 years and from what I gather there was some bartering >10 years ago (not sure the exact date, but my impression is it was in the 90s). However, it shifted to a "gifting" economy where you give out gifts with no expectation of return and any Burner who hears that characterized as bartering would be quick to correct you.
- aurelius12 9y ago
  Yeah, bartering was a 90s thing. I suspect it died out because it's actually a hassle compared to gifting.

nefitty 9y ago

Do you mean there is some kind of rule or law preventing that? Otherwise, it's not appropriate to generalize the microeconomic behavior of a population of 70,000+ (2017 attendance estimate).

bdcs 9y ago
There is no rule. Any attendee is free to barter! I will say in my experience (and second-hand experience with hundreds if not thousands of participants), that there is literally zero* bartering. And, furthermore, many (cf ~all) people would be aghast at any sort of quid pro quo exchange. Read the last paragraph from the parent stating they would not return without a large presentation/gift. This captures the spirit/zeitgeist/culture of burning man! * I have seen some bartering with illicit substances to prove one isn't a law enforcement officer, but the barter amounts to "show me you have some money, even a few cents, and I'll trade you immeasurable money"
- taurath 9y ago
  That’s funny, but goes to show that everyone’s experience is what they make of it. My camp one year traded a bunch of alcohol for a keg and first dibs on some grilled cheese. For each it’s own.
- wjnc 9y ago
  In a recent EconTalk episode, the CEO of Burning Man [1] says otherwise. They even try to police bartering, based on tips from the community. [1] http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2018/01/marian_goodell.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2018/01/marian_goodell.html
  - mgce 9y ago
    More context from your link: "it used to happen more in the early years--certainly in the early 2000s when, frankly, when the dot-com concept was coming to life, one of the things we would see which was a little related to Gifting and a little related to Decommodification is, we would see camps have logos from their start-up in front of their camp." The point is that Burning Man's community is not built around transactional experience, and that value shines strongly throughout the experience.

throwaway010718 9y ago

You are right about this and we were both surprised at how sober Burning Man was. The media literally used the phrase "drug-fueled orgy" to describe Burning Man that year. Given all the nudity and psychedelic nature of the event I can see how one could come to this conclusion. Well, that and the fact that someone probably re-gifted our drug-laced snack for a masturbation session. Seriously there was an actual tent where you could trade snacks, pancakes, whatever, for a hand-job. Jeez, why did you have to derail an intentionally sentimental comment by mocking it as "cute".

nasredin 9y ago
Thanks for the info. IMHO a snack or a couple of pancakes for a handjob is a good deal. You pay more than a breakfast at IHOP for that kind of happy ending here.
localhost3000 9y ago
It was a great comment, thanks for sharing.
srge 9y ago
That was a great story and I did not like it called cute. Thank you for sharing.
bredren 9y ago
Intentionally sentimental, indeed. The first thing you do here is elevate your 'engineer work ethic' above your brother who is merely an artist. You go on to describe how your brother did all this nice stuff for you and didn't judge you despite you doing nothing to prepare and coming to the event as a spectator. You mention how for the first time ever you realize maybe you aren't that important to society. How surprising it is to find out maybe you aren't the most well-rounded person ever. Like a 30 minute sitcom you wrap up your story saying your relationship with your brother is now a team of equals due to the experience. What was your brother's growth in this little story? That his big important engineer brother might not look down on him now? Are you really a changed person due to this one week experience? Someone who doesn't measure their life value by their engineering contributions, who respects artists and their lifestyle? Is that the story you are telling? On top of that, being top comment means this will undoubtedly influence HN readers to ask themselves, "What a nice story. Maybe I should go to Burning Man this year. Maybe people will accept me as a spectator and I will be fine going in with no preparation and have some major philosophical realization about myself." So I'm reading this episode of Friends comment, hoping you at least do some justice to these potential attendees. But, no. After a successful sparkle pony ride down your memory lane you make a point to acknowledge drug use and bartering. Which shows you really don't know how to represent the event and that this is a weak intro to what it is for HN readers considering attendance for the first time. Doubling down by invoking a description by "the media" is fitting. Your story reads as possibly accurate yet wildly incomplete portrayal of your relationship with your brother. To quote another commenter, this was a "great comment" to someone who has never gone to Burning Man and does not have a sibling. Hence, my summary of it as "cute." For folks considering attending Burning Man for the first time here are some things OP missed: 1. Don't show up unprepared. 2. Don't go expecting some kind of breakthrough. Don't go with expectations of any kind. 3. Read the 10 Principals that Larry Harvey wrote in 2004.[1] [1] https://burningman.org/culture/philosophical-center/10-principles/ https://burningman.org/culture/philosophical-center/10-princ...

cocktailpeanuts 9y ago

The HN mod should penalize those who says "this is cute" type of shit as much as they penalize heavy trolling. Actually "cute" is much worse than straightforward trolling, it's passive aggressive in the most pathetic way.

thisacctforreal 9y ago
I use cute sincerely quite often, and I think OP did too.
- cocktailpeanuts 9y ago
  If you use it often AND you think OP used it sincerely, I think you may be unintentionally offending tons of people on HN without realizing. If you want to express sincere compliment, there are many many words that are way better. "cute" is both literally and figuratively offensive. Which adult would like to be called "cute" (unless it's two sexually attracted people talking about each other) even if it was in a positive manner?
- fiatpandas 9y ago
  Given the context, “cute story” is 100% patronizing / belittling. You need to employ some serious mental gymnastics to believe it’s being used in any other sense.
- bluntfang 9y ago
  bless your heart..
srge 9y ago
I agree

aurelius12 9y ago

That's only sort of true. There are -plenty- of bars out there that will reward you with a drink once you entertain them in some way (flashing them, for instance). But beyond that, it also depends when you're talking about. Bartering preceded gifting culturally at BM, and was definitely a thing in the early to mid 90s.