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Has the prescription described worked anywhere - invest in downtown shops after a mall fails? It does not address people will almost always search for the bette

Has the prescription described worked anywhere - invest in downtown shops after a mall fails? It does not address people will almost always search for the better price. We had an article about six months ago talking about how Dollar General was swooping into places like this or where even Walmart failed.

closeparen 9y ago
Newer malls have done away with cavernous indoor spaces, and are dense pedestrianized downtowns (albeit not always in the city center, and usually with ample free parking garages). They seem to be doing pretty well.
- ghaff 9y ago
  I’d say they were a mix but they tend to be upscale in any case. But somewhere like Santana Row is as you describe.
  - Avshalom 9y ago
    That's because they're new. The new mall is always more upscale than the old mall.
- freehunter 9y ago
  Problem is, it can't be a downtown unless there is a nearby uptown. Without residents within walking distance, it's just a shopping mall.
kurthr 9y ago
It's not clear that the end of the search for best price is even at BigBox with mail order Amazon/Walmart making their way in. The advantage of a town/city at all is in its density and walkabilty, the ability to windowshop and compare. The US had a lot of investment in that over the last 100 years (e.g. since 1918) until the leveraged sub-urban hypergrowth (and buyouts) of the 70/80s till now. A lot of it seems like reaching for yield (through leverage) in the hope of bringing back the good old days. Certainly, it will be hard to get developers with their control of most city councils to buy into a reinvigorated well policed downtown until it really falls down. They make their money buying cheap, getting sweetheart infrastructure/tax deals and building "upscale" housing/retail on the edges... or the core once it's already gentrifying.
vinceguidry 9y ago
That's a good point. The author argues that the small towns of America have frittered away their wealth. His sub-point is to argue that wealth is, well, what exactly? Obviously a vibrant downtown with nice shops is certainly valuable to some people. But economic activity has always chased the faster, newer and cheaper. Asking it to go the other way is a tall task, always has been, always will be. The point of the matter is, we need a lot of stuff. Scaling is still very much something America and the world needs, much more so than nicely landscaped downtowns. I read that article about diapers and just how sophisticated they really are, just how much R&D goes into them and how thin the profit margins are on them. Wanting cheaper diapers won't magically make it so. Americans choose what they want, and asking people to want different things is ultimately saying you're smarter than them. You might want a JC Penney's, but the struggling housewife next door wants a Dollar General if she can't get a Wal-Mart.
- jessaustin 9y ago
  A Dollar General just opened in a village near here with a population of 91. A few more people live in the countryside outside the village, but double-digit populations are never going to get a Wal-Mart or a downtown shopping district.
viburnum 9y ago
Asheville, NC is an example that worked. https://www.planetizen.com/node/53922 https://www.planetizen.com/node/53922 Google will find you lots more.
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  Thanks wasn't sure of what to use for search terms, examples would have helped the article. This Asheville article indicates that one should encourage more commercial development of more expensive buildings so both property taxes (based on building value) and employees make money downtown and consumer taxes go to the city, I can understand how there is incentive for a business for the latter but not the expensive building part ( how does one motivate a developer to do that over something more economical for an owner?).

closeparen 9y ago

Newer malls have done away with cavernous indoor spaces, and are dense pedestrianized downtowns (albeit not always in the city center, and usually with ample free parking garages). They seem to be doing pretty well.

ghaff 9y ago
I’d say they were a mix but they tend to be upscale in any case. But somewhere like Santana Row is as you describe.
- Avshalom 9y ago
  That's because they're new. The new mall is always more upscale than the old mall.
freehunter 9y ago
Problem is, it can't be a downtown unless there is a nearby uptown. Without residents within walking distance, it's just a shopping mall.

kurthr 9y ago

It's not clear that the end of the search for best price is even at BigBox with mail order Amazon/Walmart making their way in. The advantage of a town/city at all is in its density and walkabilty, the ability to windowshop and compare. The US had a lot of investment in that over the last 100 years (e.g. since 1918) until the leveraged sub-urban hypergrowth (and buyouts) of the 70/80s till now. A lot of it seems like reaching for yield (through leverage) in the hope of bringing back the good old days. Certainly, it will be hard to get developers with their control of most city councils to buy into a reinvigorated well policed downtown until it really falls down. They make their money buying cheap, getting sweetheart infrastructure/tax deals and building "upscale" housing/retail on the edges... or the core once it's already gentrifying.

vinceguidry 9y ago

That's a good point. The author argues that the small towns of America have frittered away their wealth. His sub-point is to argue that wealth is, well, what exactly? Obviously a vibrant downtown with nice shops is certainly valuable to some people. But economic activity has always chased the faster, newer and cheaper. Asking it to go the other way is a tall task, always has been, always will be. The point of the matter is, we need a lot of stuff. Scaling is still very much something America and the world needs, much more so than nicely landscaped downtowns. I read that article about diapers and just how sophisticated they really are, just how much R&D goes into them and how thin the profit margins are on them. Wanting cheaper diapers won't magically make it so. Americans choose what they want, and asking people to want different things is ultimately saying you're smarter than them. You might want a JC Penney's, but the struggling housewife next door wants a Dollar General if she can't get a Wal-Mart.

jessaustin 9y ago
A Dollar General just opened in a village near here with a population of 91. A few more people live in the countryside outside the village, but double-digit populations are never going to get a Wal-Mart or a downtown shopping district.

viburnum 9y ago

Asheville, NC is an example that worked. https://www.planetizen.com/node/53922 https://www.planetizen.com/node/53922 Google will find you lots more.

stevenwoo 9y ago
Thanks wasn't sure of what to use for search terms, examples would have helped the article. This Asheville article indicates that one should encourage more commercial development of more expensive buildings so both property taxes (based on building value) and employees make money downtown and consumer taxes go to the city, I can understand how there is incentive for a business for the latter but not the expensive building part ( how does one motivate a developer to do that over something more economical for an owner?).