4 ms·

> I’m not middle class but if you are thrifty and can prioritize freedom over needless expenses ie $5 cup of coffee I'm not sure how the $5 cup of coffee becam

> I’m not middle class but if you are thrifty and can prioritize freedom over needless expenses ie $5 cup of coffee I'm not sure how the $5 cup of coffee became the symbol of financial irresponsibility. An apartment in Midtown NYC runs about $4k a month. LIC is $2.2k. Yet for some reason we blame the coffee.

germinalphrase 9y ago
Probably a carryover from the time where upscale coffee was relatively new to the urban cores and developed some social status, but before you could buy decent coffee almost anywhere in the country (90's to early 2000's?) It was a clearly frivolous pleasure. Neee caffeine? Folgers is cheap.
- vlan0 9y ago
  $5 is definitely a lot of cash for a cup of actual coffee. I can purchase local freshly roasted single origin coffee at $17 for 12oz and still come out way ahead of $5 per cup. Of course you need coffee gear, but that's paid for itself over the last five years.
sokoloff 9y ago
It started from the "Latte Factor": https://davidbach.com/latte-factor/ https://davidbach.com/latte-factor/ I do find it absurd to pay $5+ for a few ounces of hot water poured over ground beans or chopped leaves and placed into a cup with a mermaid on it, so I don't do it. I also don't think it's the root of people's money problems. However it, combined with 19 other small frivolities, is one branch of their problem in a lot of cases. (The branch being "unexamined, frequent, persistent leaks in the bucket".)
- kristianc 9y ago
  Sure - but you're confusing what people are actually paying for when they buy a Starbucks. When people buy Starbucks, they're buying 15 minutes of time to sit in a warm cafe with friends, free WiFi, a space to work, and the labour involved in having to make the coffee for themselves. I'm still not sure it amounts to an argument why the $150 a month people would save on coffee are the root of people's money problems, or why they should give up that 19 other small frivolities just so they can afford somewhere to live.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    "When people buy Starbucks, they're buying 15 minutes of time to sit in a warm cafe with friends, free WiFi, a space to work, and the labour involved in having to make the coffee for themselves." I see a lot of people do drive through. There are no friends involved and they probably can't even enjoy their drink while stuck in traffic.
    - kristianc 9y ago
      > I see a lot of people do drive through. There are no friends involved and they probably can't even enjoy their drink while stuck in traffic. My model doesn't require me prove that every single person makes a perfectly rational economic decision when buying a Starbucks - merely that people derive more than the value of the beans and the water from consuming a Starbucks.
      - maxxxxx 9y ago
        It's fine. People just should be aware that they are spending a substantial amount of money on it. A while ago we looked at my girlfriend's Starbucks receipts and they added up to $1300 a year. That's a nice vacation or a new camera or something else she thinks she can't afford.
        scarface74 9y ago
        But that cup of coffee may bring her a little joy every morning. That vacation is maybe a weeks worth of pleasure? I'm not saying either is right, but it is about priorities. Because of...reasons...I am having to choose between enjoying time with my wife now and saving more for retirement and retiring a little bit earlier. We have only being married 5 years and now have the flexibility to enjoy our selves more. I'm purposefully making the choice to live for the now. I'm turning down side contracts that people keep trying to throw at me because I really enjoy the now. We all make choices.
  - cimmanom 9y ago
    Wait, are you really asking why people should give up unnecessary expenses if they're spending so much on them that they can't afford rent? No, $150/mo won't get you a place to live in NYC; but 10 $150/mo habits sure will. And maybe that single $150/mo habit is the difference between "there's literally no room in this city available to rent for $650/mo" and "I have a place to lay my head for $800/mo".
- hpcjoe 9y ago
  Economic death by a hundred lattes per month.
- scarface74 9y ago
  I disagree. It's not the frivolities that are causing people problems it's "lifestyle inflation". I know my family spends a lot on things that could be considered "frivolous", but I'm very careful about not increasing the fixed expenses - mortgage, car notes, random other debt - that you can't just cut back on at a moments notice. I have a monthly budget and I have a "minimum budget". The minimum budget is how much it would take to survive a month if I lost my job.
mlevental 9y ago
why are people still trying to live in manhattan? yes the trains are starting to really suck i guess but a couple of years ago (when people were still saying this) it took me 30 minutes to get door to door from brooklyn.
- kristianc 9y ago
  Parts of Queens and Brooklyn (c.f the parts where it is easy to get the E into Manhattan) are now approaching what rents were in Manhattan a couple of years ago.
  - mlevental 9y ago
    basically everything south of williamsburgh and east of parkslope is like 1/4-1/3 of manhattan costs. as i wrote in response to the person living in UWS: the only difference is the average skin tone.
- RhysU 9y ago
  Because it's great. Source: UWS
  - mlevental 9y ago
    what exactly is great about UWS? i dated a woman who lived in morningside heights. it's just generic nyc things (like everywhere else). only difference between my neighborhood in brooklyn and morningside heights was the average skintone.
qntty 9y ago
People need to find a way to blame financial problems on the individuals involved without thinking too hard
c22 9y ago
I don't think anyone "blames the coffee", but rather identifies the coffee as something that could easily be downsized (by simply not drinking it, making it at home, or switching to a cheaper preparation). When you add in tips for the baristas a year not drinking coffee could be worth a month's rent, which is not insignificant.
ohiovr 9y ago
Well you don't need to pay 90 dollars for a cell phone service or 120 for cable, or spend as redonculous 2100 for food either. Do you really have to eat prime beef tenderloin steak every day?
jeffdavis 9y ago
In different places different frivilous things make sense. In high-rent, high-income cities, $5 coffee isn't going to have a financial impact but a walk-in closet is ridiculous. In other areas, the opposite is true.

germinalphrase 9y ago

Probably a carryover from the time where upscale coffee was relatively new to the urban cores and developed some social status, but before you could buy decent coffee almost anywhere in the country (90's to early 2000's?) It was a clearly frivolous pleasure. Neee caffeine? Folgers is cheap.

vlan0 9y ago
$5 is definitely a lot of cash for a cup of actual coffee. I can purchase local freshly roasted single origin coffee at $17 for 12oz and still come out way ahead of $5 per cup. Of course you need coffee gear, but that's paid for itself over the last five years.

sokoloff 9y ago

It started from the "Latte Factor": https://davidbach.com/latte-factor/ https://davidbach.com/latte-factor/ I do find it absurd to pay $5+ for a few ounces of hot water poured over ground beans or chopped leaves and placed into a cup with a mermaid on it, so I don't do it. I also don't think it's the root of people's money problems. However it, combined with 19 other small frivolities, is one branch of their problem in a lot of cases. (The branch being "unexamined, frequent, persistent leaks in the bucket".)

kristianc 9y ago
Sure - but you're confusing what people are actually paying for when they buy a Starbucks. When people buy Starbucks, they're buying 15 minutes of time to sit in a warm cafe with friends, free WiFi, a space to work, and the labour involved in having to make the coffee for themselves. I'm still not sure it amounts to an argument why the $150 a month people would save on coffee are the root of people's money problems, or why they should give up that 19 other small frivolities just so they can afford somewhere to live.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  "When people buy Starbucks, they're buying 15 minutes of time to sit in a warm cafe with friends, free WiFi, a space to work, and the labour involved in having to make the coffee for themselves." I see a lot of people do drive through. There are no friends involved and they probably can't even enjoy their drink while stuck in traffic.
  - kristianc 9y ago
    > I see a lot of people do drive through. There are no friends involved and they probably can't even enjoy their drink while stuck in traffic. My model doesn't require me prove that every single person makes a perfectly rational economic decision when buying a Starbucks - merely that people derive more than the value of the beans and the water from consuming a Starbucks.
    - maxxxxx 9y ago
      It's fine. People just should be aware that they are spending a substantial amount of money on it. A while ago we looked at my girlfriend's Starbucks receipts and they added up to $1300 a year. That's a nice vacation or a new camera or something else she thinks she can't afford.
      - scarface74 9y ago
        But that cup of coffee may bring her a little joy every morning. That vacation is maybe a weeks worth of pleasure? I'm not saying either is right, but it is about priorities. Because of...reasons...I am having to choose between enjoying time with my wife now and saving more for retirement and retiring a little bit earlier. We have only being married 5 years and now have the flexibility to enjoy our selves more. I'm purposefully making the choice to live for the now. I'm turning down side contracts that people keep trying to throw at me because I really enjoy the now. We all make choices.
- cimmanom 9y ago
  Wait, are you really asking why people should give up unnecessary expenses if they're spending so much on them that they can't afford rent? No, $150/mo won't get you a place to live in NYC; but 10 $150/mo habits sure will. And maybe that single $150/mo habit is the difference between "there's literally no room in this city available to rent for $650/mo" and "I have a place to lay my head for $800/mo".
hpcjoe 9y ago
Economic death by a hundred lattes per month.
scarface74 9y ago
I disagree. It's not the frivolities that are causing people problems it's "lifestyle inflation". I know my family spends a lot on things that could be considered "frivolous", but I'm very careful about not increasing the fixed expenses - mortgage, car notes, random other debt - that you can't just cut back on at a moments notice. I have a monthly budget and I have a "minimum budget". The minimum budget is how much it would take to survive a month if I lost my job.

mlevental 9y ago

why are people still trying to live in manhattan? yes the trains are starting to really suck i guess but a couple of years ago (when people were still saying this) it took me 30 minutes to get door to door from brooklyn.

kristianc 9y ago
Parts of Queens and Brooklyn (c.f the parts where it is easy to get the E into Manhattan) are now approaching what rents were in Manhattan a couple of years ago.
- mlevental 9y ago
  basically everything south of williamsburgh and east of parkslope is like 1/4-1/3 of manhattan costs. as i wrote in response to the person living in UWS: the only difference is the average skin tone.
RhysU 9y ago
Because it's great. Source: UWS
- mlevental 9y ago
  what exactly is great about UWS? i dated a woman who lived in morningside heights. it's just generic nyc things (like everywhere else). only difference between my neighborhood in brooklyn and morningside heights was the average skintone.

qntty 9y ago

People need to find a way to blame financial problems on the individuals involved without thinking too hard

c22 9y ago

I don't think anyone "blames the coffee", but rather identifies the coffee as something that could easily be downsized (by simply not drinking it, making it at home, or switching to a cheaper preparation). When you add in tips for the baristas a year not drinking coffee could be worth a month's rent, which is not insignificant.

ohiovr 9y ago

Well you don't need to pay 90 dollars for a cell phone service or 120 for cable, or spend as redonculous 2100 for food either. Do you really have to eat prime beef tenderloin steak every day?

jeffdavis 9y ago

In different places different frivilous things make sense. In high-rent, high-income cities, $5 coffee isn't going to have a financial impact but a walk-in closet is ridiculous. In other areas, the opposite is true.