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I'm arguing that heliocentrism was a means to an end. The Catholic Church was being accused of not taking the Bible seriously by the Protestents which is what c

I'm arguing that heliocentrism was a means to an end. The Catholic Church was being accused of not taking the Bible seriously by the Protestents which is what caused the whole "heliocentrism heresy", but it wasn't really about heliocentrism it was about the Catholic Church trying to protect themselves. See also this line from the wikipedia article: "The decree of the Congregation of the Index banned Copernicus's De Revolutionibus and other heliocentric works until correction. Bellarmine's instructions did not prohibit Galileo from discussing heliocentrism as a mathematical and philosophic idea, so long as he did not advocate for its physical truth." This was a political move, with heliocentrism being the vechicle.

jamesrcole 8y ago
But if he hadn't promoted heliocentrism would he have been locked up? I'm not sure of the answer to that, but if he wouldn't have, then it's more than reasonable to say that he was locked up because of the heliocentrism, and that there were broader reasons for their crackdown on things like heliocentrism. An analogy: if we imagined, for the sake of the argument, that in the modern world, there are political motivations for cracking down on certain drugs. A person gets jailed for possession of one of these drugs. It's fair to say that possession of the drug was the reason they were jailed, and that the law behind it was politically motivated.
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  It's more like the police say they aren't enforcing minor drug crimes, but someone decides to protest by smoking weed in a police station while saying what an idiot the police chief is, and then gets arrested.
  - acqq 8y ago
    More like: one famous weed smoker is smoking against the law, the law obviously doesn't forbid "talking that some people smoke" but the "normal people" who are actually found smoking (heretics) do rot in prisons or get executed. One famous weed smoker is protected by the police chief personally for some years... until he loses that protection. The actual parts of Galileo's sentence by the Inquisition: "because of the things deduced in the trial and confessed by you as above, have rendered yourself according to this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely of having held and believed a doctine which is false and contrary to the divine and Holy Scripture: that the sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west, and the earth moves and is not the center of the world, and that one may hold and defend as probable an opinion after it has been declared and defined contrary to Holy Scripture. Consequently you have incurred all the censures and penalties imposed and promulgated by the sacred canons and all particular and general laws against such delinquents." "so that this serious and pernicious error and transgression of yours does not remain completely unpunished, and so that you will be more cautious in the future and an example for others to abstain from similar crimes, we order that the book Dialogue by Galileo Galilei be prohibited by public edict." "We condemn you to formal imprisonment in this Holy Office at our pleasure." The rest of the sentence is equally very clear. See my other post or Wikipedia for the link. Pope John Paul II, 1992: "The error of the theologians of the time, when they maintained the centrality of the Earth, was to think that our understanding of the physical world's structure was, in some way, imposed by the literal sense of Sacred Scripture"
- pfortuny 8y ago
  He was given the way out of stating it as a Hypothesis. He simply did not want to AND insulted the other party. I mean: it was not a problem with heliocentrism (the jesuit scientists supported it), it was a problem of politics. You can be right but do not expect the other party to absolve you if you insult it.
  - acqq 8y ago
    > it was not a problem with heliocentrism It surely was. Copernicus' book remained also banned by the Church for 202 years more after Galileo's sentence. That very sentence by the Inquisition directly banned Galileo's book and sentenced him to lifetime (house) imprisonment. It was so light because Galileo "abjured, cursed, and detested" his errors ("false opinion that the sun is the center"), and his Abjuration is also preserved (I quote parts of it): "I, Galileo, son of the late Vincenzio Galilei of Florence, seventy years of age, arraigned personally for judgment, kneeling before you Most Eminent and Most Reverend Cardinals Inquisitors-General against heretical depravity in all of Christendom, having before my eyes and touching with my hands the Holy Gospels, swear that I have always believed, I believe now, and with God's help I will believe in the future all that the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church holds, preaches, and teaches. However, whereas, after having been judicially instructed with injunction by the Holy Office to abandon completely the false opinion that the sun is the center of the world and does not move and the earth is not the center of the world and moves, and not to hold defend, or teach this false doctrine in any way whatever, orally or in writing; and after having been notified that this doctrine is contrary to Holy Scripture; I wrote and published a book in which I treat of this already condemned doctrine and adduce very effective reasons in its favor, without refuting them in any way; therefore, I have been judged vehemently suspected of heresy, namely of having held and believed that the sun is the center of the world and motionless and the earth is not the center and moves. Therefore, desiring to removed from the minds of Your Eminences and every faithful Christian this vehement suspicion, rightly conceived against me, with a sincere heart and unfeigned faith I abjure, curse, and detest the above-mentioned errors and heresies, and in general each and every other error, heresy, and sect contrary to the Holy Church"
  - jamesrcole 8y ago
    I said "But if he hadn't promoted heliocentrism would he have been locked up?". What you're saying is consistent with "No, he would not have been locked up", yet you're claiming "it was not a problem with heliocentrism". Taking this from another angle, you say "He was given the way out of stating it as a Hypothesis." A "way out" implies there was something wrong done -- presenting a heliocentric view -- that you can get out of being punished for.

jamesrcole 8y ago

But if he hadn't promoted heliocentrism would he have been locked up? I'm not sure of the answer to that, but if he wouldn't have, then it's more than reasonable to say that he was locked up because of the heliocentrism, and that there were broader reasons for their crackdown on things like heliocentrism. An analogy: if we imagined, for the sake of the argument, that in the modern world, there are political motivations for cracking down on certain drugs. A person gets jailed for possession of one of these drugs. It's fair to say that possession of the drug was the reason they were jailed, and that the law behind it was politically motivated.

fjsolwmv 8y ago
It's more like the police say they aren't enforcing minor drug crimes, but someone decides to protest by smoking weed in a police station while saying what an idiot the police chief is, and then gets arrested.
- acqq 8y ago
  More like: one famous weed smoker is smoking against the law, the law obviously doesn't forbid "talking that some people smoke" but the "normal people" who are actually found smoking (heretics) do rot in prisons or get executed. One famous weed smoker is protected by the police chief personally for some years... until he loses that protection. The actual parts of Galileo's sentence by the Inquisition: "because of the things deduced in the trial and confessed by you as above, have rendered yourself according to this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely of having held and believed a doctine which is false and contrary to the divine and Holy Scripture: that the sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west, and the earth moves and is not the center of the world, and that one may hold and defend as probable an opinion after it has been declared and defined contrary to Holy Scripture. Consequently you have incurred all the censures and penalties imposed and promulgated by the sacred canons and all particular and general laws against such delinquents." "so that this serious and pernicious error and transgression of yours does not remain completely unpunished, and so that you will be more cautious in the future and an example for others to abstain from similar crimes, we order that the book Dialogue by Galileo Galilei be prohibited by public edict." "We condemn you to formal imprisonment in this Holy Office at our pleasure." The rest of the sentence is equally very clear. See my other post or Wikipedia for the link. Pope John Paul II, 1992: "The error of the theologians of the time, when they maintained the centrality of the Earth, was to think that our understanding of the physical world's structure was, in some way, imposed by the literal sense of Sacred Scripture"
pfortuny 8y ago
He was given the way out of stating it as a Hypothesis. He simply did not want to AND insulted the other party. I mean: it was not a problem with heliocentrism (the jesuit scientists supported it), it was a problem of politics. You can be right but do not expect the other party to absolve you if you insult it.
- acqq 8y ago
  > it was not a problem with heliocentrism It surely was. Copernicus' book remained also banned by the Church for 202 years more after Galileo's sentence. That very sentence by the Inquisition directly banned Galileo's book and sentenced him to lifetime (house) imprisonment. It was so light because Galileo "abjured, cursed, and detested" his errors ("false opinion that the sun is the center"), and his Abjuration is also preserved (I quote parts of it): "I, Galileo, son of the late Vincenzio Galilei of Florence, seventy years of age, arraigned personally for judgment, kneeling before you Most Eminent and Most Reverend Cardinals Inquisitors-General against heretical depravity in all of Christendom, having before my eyes and touching with my hands the Holy Gospels, swear that I have always believed, I believe now, and with God's help I will believe in the future all that the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church holds, preaches, and teaches. However, whereas, after having been judicially instructed with injunction by the Holy Office to abandon completely the false opinion that the sun is the center of the world and does not move and the earth is not the center of the world and moves, and not to hold defend, or teach this false doctrine in any way whatever, orally or in writing; and after having been notified that this doctrine is contrary to Holy Scripture; I wrote and published a book in which I treat of this already condemned doctrine and adduce very effective reasons in its favor, without refuting them in any way; therefore, I have been judged vehemently suspected of heresy, namely of having held and believed that the sun is the center of the world and motionless and the earth is not the center and moves. Therefore, desiring to removed from the minds of Your Eminences and every faithful Christian this vehement suspicion, rightly conceived against me, with a sincere heart and unfeigned faith I abjure, curse, and detest the above-mentioned errors and heresies, and in general each and every other error, heresy, and sect contrary to the Holy Church"
- jamesrcole 8y ago
  I said "But if he hadn't promoted heliocentrism would he have been locked up?". What you're saying is consistent with "No, he would not have been locked up", yet you're claiming "it was not a problem with heliocentrism". Taking this from another angle, you say "He was given the way out of stating it as a Hypothesis." A "way out" implies there was something wrong done -- presenting a heliocentric view -- that you can get out of being punished for.