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The fact that developed nations spend 10% of GDP on healthcare belies this. (That fraction is significantly higher in the US.) The potential market for viable t

by pzone 8y ago

The fact that developed nations spend 10% of GDP on healthcare belies this. (That fraction is significantly higher in the US.) The potential market for viable treatments to extend human lifespan is in the trillions. Maybe some individuals don't care about death because they are carefree people, but society as a whole seems convinced it's something to fight. It's a revealed preference, from how much money we spend to stay healthy. Let's put it another way: do you think pharmaceutical companies and academics aren't trying hard enough to attack this multidimensional problem? Who seems to be lacking urgency?

TeMPOraL 8y ago
> The fact that developed nations spend 10% of GDP on healthcare belies this. In the parable, this would be mostly equivalent to people who find themselves on the list of next dragon transport spending money on getting themselves pushed to a list in the future. Everyone expects to be eaten by the dragon, but if there's money, you can be eaten later and not just now. Most of that money is then burned somehow, and very little of it finds its way to anti-dragon research. This seems to reflect the views of a lot of people on on aging and death itself. "Death is good and natural, and I'll eventually die too, but I'd prefer to die later". > Let's put it another way: do you think pharmaceutical companies and academics aren't trying hard enough to attack this multidimensional problem? Who seems to be lacking urgency? Do you think this is how urgency looks? It isn't. Urgency looks like Apollo Program. Or every single Olympics. Lost of people working directly on a particular goal, with lots of money flowing in. As it is, there seems to be only few people working on aging/life extension directly. Urgency would be when, besides that 10% GDP spent on healthcare, you'd spend a few percent more directly on life extension.
- mikeash 8y ago
  What is health care if not life extension?
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    Life preservation against non-aging-related causes, reduction of suffering, improving quality of life. As it is, healthcare isn't really directly concerned with extending human lifespan beyond the expected figures.
    - mikeash 8y ago
      A huge amount of health care is preserving life in the face of aging. There are a ton of diseases that come from aging, and many treatments for them. This whole thing seems to be about drawing a nonsensical line between “disease” and “aging” and either ignoring the former as a cause of death, or deciding that it has enough effort behind it already. If someone has a cancer that’s going to kill them in six months, and it’s cured with a medical treatment, how is that not extending their lifespan? What would lifespan extension look like, if not a slow, broad development of myriad treatments to treat or cure the many things which kill us?
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
  >> This seems to reflect the views of a lot of people on on aging and death itself. "Death is good and natural, and I'll eventually die too, but I'd prefer to die later". Why do you say this? I have never met anyone who thought that "death is good and natural". I've heard many people say that it is inevitable and it is futile to try and avoid it, but "good and natural"? There is no such thing as a natural death. Nothing that happens to Man is ever natural, since his presence calls the whole world into question. All men must die, but for every man his death is an accident. And even if he knows it and consents to it, an unjustifiable violation. Simone de Beauvoir after Tolkien: http://confusedneurons.tumblr.com/post/80683906667/all-men-must-die-but-for-every-man-his-death-is http://confusedneurons.tumblr.com/post/80683906667/all-men-m...
  - JoshTriplett 8y ago
    > Why do you say this? I have never met anyone who thought that "death is good and natural". I've heard many people say that it is inevitable and it is futile to try and avoid it, but "good and natural"? I've run into a huge number of people who say this, or equivalents. "It was their time." "They lived a good life." "Death gives meaning to life." Those are cliches and thought patterns that make it harder to recognize aging and death for the tragedy it is, and thus make it harder to rally against them. If you go back through the comments on various HN stories about aging and the possible cures thereof, you'll also find many people here who seem to hold similar positions, as though death is an essential part of humanity without which various horrible problems would befall us. There also exist a substantial number of stories featuring, for want of a better description, "immortality angst". Oh, how terrible a thing it is to live forever, how meaningful is the life of Man for its limited time, would that we could do the same... There are far fewer stories that take the opposite approach, treating immortality as a thing to be desired and death as a tragedy to be solved. Even in science fiction, where we should be aspiring to far more, I've seen many otherwise good stories and series include musings similar to those above. They reach for the comforting rationalization instead of the inspiring future.
    - YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
      >> "It was their time." "They lived a good life." "Death gives meaning to life." Of these, the first two sound like empty platitudes said to avoid an awkward conversation witht the relatives of a deceased person. The last one, I don't know what it means. It sounds like a contradiction to me and I really wonder what you mean by "a huge number", for this experssion in particular. Personally, I would only use the words "huge number" to describe the behaviour of a group of people if I was talking about, say, a crowd in a stadium, which is many more people than I'm ever likely to have a conversation about death with. So, forgive me if I keep my doubts about your assessment of the general public's attitudes about mortality, only from your experience of such conversations. Literature is another issue altogether. I agree that there is plenty of literature of the kind you describe and I'm sure someone must already have conducted a study, even. On the other hand, for every "Who wants to live forever" kind of story, there is a Dylan Thomas, or at the very least a Love Story (the 1970 film- if you google it, beware of the SPOILERS) that laments the death of a loved one as the greatest tragedy that can befall a human being. And let's not even start on religion and its promises of life eternal and raising of the dead. But, since I'm chomping at the bit for a chance to quote this in its entirety: Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rage at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Though wise men at their end know dark is right, Because their words had forked no lightning they Do not go gentle into that good night. Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight, And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way, Do not go gentle into that good night. Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. And you, my father, there on the sad height, Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray. Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas, Do not go Gentle into that Good Night. Indeed, I, for one, intend to kick and scream, and bite and scratch, and drag my heels all the way to the grave.

by pzone 8y ago

TeMPOraL 8y ago

> The fact that developed nations spend 10% of GDP on healthcare belies this. In the parable, this would be mostly equivalent to people who find themselves on the list of next dragon transport spending money on getting themselves pushed to a list in the future. Everyone expects to be eaten by the dragon, but if there's money, you can be eaten later and not just now. Most of that money is then burned somehow, and very little of it finds its way to anti-dragon research. This seems to reflect the views of a lot of people on on aging and death itself. "Death is good and natural, and I'll eventually die too, but I'd prefer to die later". > Let's put it another way: do you think pharmaceutical companies and academics aren't trying hard enough to attack this multidimensional problem? Who seems to be lacking urgency? Do you think this is how urgency looks? It isn't. Urgency looks like Apollo Program. Or every single Olympics. Lost of people working directly on a particular goal, with lots of money flowing in. As it is, there seems to be only few people working on aging/life extension directly. Urgency would be when, besides that 10% GDP spent on healthcare, you'd spend a few percent more directly on life extension.

mikeash 8y ago
What is health care if not life extension?
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  Life preservation against non-aging-related causes, reduction of suffering, improving quality of life. As it is, healthcare isn't really directly concerned with extending human lifespan beyond the expected figures.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    A huge amount of health care is preserving life in the face of aging. There are a ton of diseases that come from aging, and many treatments for them. This whole thing seems to be about drawing a nonsensical line between “disease” and “aging” and either ignoring the former as a cause of death, or deciding that it has enough effort behind it already. If someone has a cancer that’s going to kill them in six months, and it’s cured with a medical treatment, how is that not extending their lifespan? What would lifespan extension look like, if not a slow, broad development of myriad treatments to treat or cure the many things which kill us?
YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
>> This seems to reflect the views of a lot of people on on aging and death itself. "Death is good and natural, and I'll eventually die too, but I'd prefer to die later". Why do you say this? I have never met anyone who thought that "death is good and natural". I've heard many people say that it is inevitable and it is futile to try and avoid it, but "good and natural"? There is no such thing as a natural death. Nothing that happens to Man is ever natural, since his presence calls the whole world into question. All men must die, but for every man his death is an accident. And even if he knows it and consents to it, an unjustifiable violation. Simone de Beauvoir after Tolkien: http://confusedneurons.tumblr.com/post/80683906667/all-men-must-die-but-for-every-man-his-death-is http://confusedneurons.tumblr.com/post/80683906667/all-men-m...
- JoshTriplett 8y ago
  > Why do you say this? I have never met anyone who thought that "death is good and natural". I've heard many people say that it is inevitable and it is futile to try and avoid it, but "good and natural"? I've run into a huge number of people who say this, or equivalents. "It was their time." "They lived a good life." "Death gives meaning to life." Those are cliches and thought patterns that make it harder to recognize aging and death for the tragedy it is, and thus make it harder to rally against them. If you go back through the comments on various HN stories about aging and the possible cures thereof, you'll also find many people here who seem to hold similar positions, as though death is an essential part of humanity without which various horrible problems would befall us. There also exist a substantial number of stories featuring, for want of a better description, "immortality angst". Oh, how terrible a thing it is to live forever, how meaningful is the life of Man for its limited time, would that we could do the same... There are far fewer stories that take the opposite approach, treating immortality as a thing to be desired and death as a tragedy to be solved. Even in science fiction, where we should be aspiring to far more, I've seen many otherwise good stories and series include musings similar to those above. They reach for the comforting rationalization instead of the inspiring future.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
    >> "It was their time." "They lived a good life." "Death gives meaning to life." Of these, the first two sound like empty platitudes said to avoid an awkward conversation witht the relatives of a deceased person. The last one, I don't know what it means. It sounds like a contradiction to me and I really wonder what you mean by "a huge number", for this experssion in particular. Personally, I would only use the words "huge number" to describe the behaviour of a group of people if I was talking about, say, a crowd in a stadium, which is many more people than I'm ever likely to have a conversation about death with. So, forgive me if I keep my doubts about your assessment of the general public's attitudes about mortality, only from your experience of such conversations. Literature is another issue altogether. I agree that there is plenty of literature of the kind you describe and I'm sure someone must already have conducted a study, even. On the other hand, for every "Who wants to live forever" kind of story, there is a Dylan Thomas, or at the very least a Love Story (the 1970 film- if you google it, beware of the SPOILERS) that laments the death of a loved one as the greatest tragedy that can befall a human being. And let's not even start on religion and its promises of life eternal and raising of the dead. But, since I'm chomping at the bit for a chance to quote this in its entirety: Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rage at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Though wise men at their end know dark is right, Because their words had forked no lightning they Do not go gentle into that good night. Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight, And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way, Do not go gentle into that good night. Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. And you, my father, there on the sad height, Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray. Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas, Do not go Gentle into that Good Night. Indeed, I, for one, intend to kick and scream, and bite and scratch, and drag my heels all the way to the grave.