6 ms·

Im male. When i first got interested in computers(back when my age was a single digit), i didn't follow role models, i just got drawn to these machines, almost

Im male. When i first got interested in computers(back when my age was a single digit), i didn't follow role models, i just got drawn to these machines, almost instinctively, and not just computers, cars, electronics, any kind of machines. I had my technical influence of course, my dad knew a lot about machines and electronics, but i think its something a bit deeper. Men have been making tools for hundreds of thousands of years, in my complete lack of experience in genetics, i think its foolish to dismiss genetic factors. Which is not to say that role models and culture have no effect, i just think that it has less of an effect than genes. Bottom line is that my politically correct(i hope) opinion is that while women positively have the ability do be good developers(physicists, mathematicians, engineers), and even though some of them DO become good, most lack this internal drive(almost an obsession) I've had since before i can remember.

wccrawford 16y ago
When I got into computers, I didn't realize there COULD be role models for that. I had never heard of any successful programmers. I couldn't name anyone famous for anything related to computers. That certainly didn't stop me from being interested.
- frgbhnmnjh 16y ago
  But the lack of role models is the reason I didn't get that job - it was nothing to do with me not working in school. It was all somebody else's fault - those damn role models. Oh, that and 'da-man' keeping me down. Actually the lack of women in tech is probably because they realize earlier than guys that if they do a psychology degree they only have to study 6hours/week and get to be a manager over all the engineer types.
anateus 16y ago
It tends to come into it earlier, here's a humorous example: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1883 http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1883 It turns out that in even very young children, adults react subconsciously to the problem-solving behaviors of children. In an observational study adults were very quick to swoop in and help girls out when they couldn't perform a task, while boys were allowed to fail until success. Of course, dismissing genetic factors outright is just as problematic as creating just-so stories and fitting evidence on them. Alas, the answer is usually more complex. My point is that there are a lot of subtle cues that pervade our society. Girls know to like pink at ages younger than 3, and yet just over a century ago pink was mostly associated with boys (pink is based on red, a proper manly color). And even well-meaning comp sci folks often subtly make women uncomfortable (feminist theory calls this "othering"). Edit: removed useless line.
jbgoddard 16y ago
Your response is so elitist it makes me sick. With admittedly little knowledge of genetics, you are willing to claim genetics as an important factor? Women have also been making tools for hundreds of thousands of years and many women are just as passionate as you. Do you even have any reason to make such a sexist claim as "most [women] lack this internal drive(almost an obsession) I've had since before I can remember"? Why does it even matter at what age someone first became interested in computers? I didn't know what binary, linux, or programming is until first semester of college. It doesn't matter at all now. Attitudes like yours alienate women who might be interested.
- pavelludiq 16y ago
  My claim was maid on the only reliable source of information i have: my own experience. Most "interesting" girls i know are extremely passionate, just not about machines, the once that are, see them a bit differently than i do. Call me what ever you like, in the world I've grown up in, boys play with trucks, girls play with dolls. What ever the reason, i don't know, i expressed an opinion, and CLEARLY stated that im no expert on the mater.
pchristensen 16y ago
Most men employed as programmers lack that obsession too. HN has lots of people that have loved computers their whole lives, and tech entrepreneurs and companies like Google, Facebook, old-school MSFT are probably loaded with these obsessives, but there are tens of millions of professional programmers out there worldwide. Most of them chose programming as a job because it passed the cost/benefit test vs other fields. That's why so many Indians (male and female) work as programmers - IT outsourcing jobs in India pay quadruple a normal wage and are more prestigious. In the US, programmers get good but not mind-boggling wage and have very little prestige outside of SV, Seattle, Boston and Austin.
zacharycohn 16y ago
"i didn't follow role models, i just got drawn to these machines, almost instinctively, and not just computers, cars, electronics, any kind of machines." You may not have had any role models, but as your interest grew, you would have heard the names of people that are doing things (making things you used, big in the industry, etc). If the situation was reversed and you were a girl, I wonder if you'd subconsciously notice that there weren't hearing about any other women, and I wonder if this would subconsciously make it seem like women "weren't allowed."
- pavelludiq 16y ago
  When i think about it, i did have a role model, his name was Dexter, and he had a secret lab in his bedroom. Although im not sure, i think i liked Decter's lab, because i liked tech, not the other way around. But this is a weak point in my argument, yes.
  - zacharycohn 16y ago
    Also, his sister was always screwing up his tech stuff. :)
ebiester 16y ago
Eh, nearly all women lack this drive. Nearly all men lack this drive, too.

wccrawford 16y ago

When I got into computers, I didn't realize there COULD be role models for that. I had never heard of any successful programmers. I couldn't name anyone famous for anything related to computers. That certainly didn't stop me from being interested.

frgbhnmnjh 16y ago
But the lack of role models is the reason I didn't get that job - it was nothing to do with me not working in school. It was all somebody else's fault - those damn role models. Oh, that and 'da-man' keeping me down. Actually the lack of women in tech is probably because they realize earlier than guys that if they do a psychology degree they only have to study 6hours/week and get to be a manager over all the engineer types.

anateus 16y ago

It tends to come into it earlier, here's a humorous example: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1883 http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1883 It turns out that in even very young children, adults react subconsciously to the problem-solving behaviors of children. In an observational study adults were very quick to swoop in and help girls out when they couldn't perform a task, while boys were allowed to fail until success. Of course, dismissing genetic factors outright is just as problematic as creating just-so stories and fitting evidence on them. Alas, the answer is usually more complex. My point is that there are a lot of subtle cues that pervade our society. Girls know to like pink at ages younger than 3, and yet just over a century ago pink was mostly associated with boys (pink is based on red, a proper manly color). And even well-meaning comp sci folks often subtly make women uncomfortable (feminist theory calls this "othering"). Edit: removed useless line.

jbgoddard 16y ago

Your response is so elitist it makes me sick. With admittedly little knowledge of genetics, you are willing to claim genetics as an important factor? Women have also been making tools for hundreds of thousands of years and many women are just as passionate as you. Do you even have any reason to make such a sexist claim as "most [women] lack this internal drive(almost an obsession) I've had since before I can remember"? Why does it even matter at what age someone first became interested in computers? I didn't know what binary, linux, or programming is until first semester of college. It doesn't matter at all now. Attitudes like yours alienate women who might be interested.

pavelludiq 16y ago
My claim was maid on the only reliable source of information i have: my own experience. Most "interesting" girls i know are extremely passionate, just not about machines, the once that are, see them a bit differently than i do. Call me what ever you like, in the world I've grown up in, boys play with trucks, girls play with dolls. What ever the reason, i don't know, i expressed an opinion, and CLEARLY stated that im no expert on the mater.

pchristensen 16y ago

Most men employed as programmers lack that obsession too. HN has lots of people that have loved computers their whole lives, and tech entrepreneurs and companies like Google, Facebook, old-school MSFT are probably loaded with these obsessives, but there are tens of millions of professional programmers out there worldwide. Most of them chose programming as a job because it passed the cost/benefit test vs other fields. That's why so many Indians (male and female) work as programmers - IT outsourcing jobs in India pay quadruple a normal wage and are more prestigious. In the US, programmers get good but not mind-boggling wage and have very little prestige outside of SV, Seattle, Boston and Austin.

zacharycohn 16y ago

"i didn't follow role models, i just got drawn to these machines, almost instinctively, and not just computers, cars, electronics, any kind of machines." You may not have had any role models, but as your interest grew, you would have heard the names of people that are doing things (making things you used, big in the industry, etc). If the situation was reversed and you were a girl, I wonder if you'd subconsciously notice that there weren't hearing about any other women, and I wonder if this would subconsciously make it seem like women "weren't allowed."

pavelludiq 16y ago
When i think about it, i did have a role model, his name was Dexter, and he had a secret lab in his bedroom. Although im not sure, i think i liked Decter's lab, because i liked tech, not the other way around. But this is a weak point in my argument, yes.
- zacharycohn 16y ago
  Also, his sister was always screwing up his tech stuff. :)

ebiester 16y ago

Eh, nearly all women lack this drive. Nearly all men lack this drive, too.