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Choice is still a thing. If you want all those government benefits in exchange for making 1/3rd of what one makes in the US, go right ahead. Their immigration l

Choice is still a thing. If you want all those government benefits in exchange for making 1/3rd of what one makes in the US, go right ahead. Their immigration laws are quite a bit more restrictive than ours, so it won’t be easy, but it can be done. There are literally hundreds of millions of people who would like to move here. Tens of millions in South America alone, in spite of long vacations, “free” healthcare, and “pensions”.

fwdpropaganda 8y ago
> If you want all those government benefits in exchange for making 1/3rd of what one makes in the US, go right ahead. Over here we don't consider that healthcare and education are a "government benefit". We consider them rights. But you sound slightly offended. Like now you're trying to prove that some people like the USA. You don't have to prove anything dude.
- throwaway84742 8y ago
  Rights for which the government taxes you through the nose. Thanks, I’d rather pay my “expensive” private insurance while I rake in a ton more cash. Commies, smh
  - leadingthenet 8y ago
    I can’t believe a comment which literally calls Europeans commies is this highly upvoted on HN. That’s why I’m smh.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - holydude 8y ago
      European mentality is really a lax commie mentality masquarading as good left wingy social democracy when in fact it is not. They just want to do capitalism somewhere else and reap the benefits to save face and pretend they are somewhat better than the capitalist nations in the north america and asia.
      - leadingthenet 8y ago
        I didn’t think people like you actually existed.
        dijit 8y ago
        This is not a helpful argument. Please try to rebuff his points if you don't agree with them.
        leadingthenet 8y ago
        Mate, no offense, but there’s nothing to rebuff. When you are that far gone, people should have the right to mock you. Spouting meaningless platitudes does not an argument make, and we’d only be feeding his stupidity by answering any of those, frankly, ridiculous points. I mean, just look at the fantastic discussion your rebuff started.
        throwaway84742 8y ago
        “Far gone” is a matter of perspective. To me, you seem like you are “far gone”. And who’s to say that your perspective is more valid than mine.
        fwdpropaganda 8y ago
        I know, these people are cartoonish. I thought they only existed in American movies.
      - dijit 8y ago
        To save us talking about ill defined social policies, I'm going to quickly define them (I'm not being condescending, it is easy for people to infer meaning from things like this) * Capitalism is an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state. * Communism a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs. * Socialism is a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. Doing any single one of these is a possible disaster, I won't get into the theories here, but lets assume extremes are unhealthy. Now, you're inferring that Europeans are "lax commies" which would mean that the goal is to get everything into the public hands. That's not quite the case, in fact it's not the case at all honestly, so it's not communism. Secondly, you refer to Europe as one political and economic model, it's not, there are many for instance the Nordic regions have their own model which is often referred to as "Nordic Capitalism" or "Nordic Social Democracy"[0] Finally, and I know this one is quite hard: Europeans typically are not nationalistic. Given that the rise of nationalism is seen as being very closely followed by facism; nationalism is a dirty word, and if you were to be described as "nationalist" it would be considered an insult in many European countries by the majority of the population. The principle problem here is that "patriotism" is synonymous with "nationalism". And Americans are very "patriotic", meaning any criticism of the country as a complete functioning system is met with hostility because so many people are so sensitive of the subject. I know it's hard to be objective when you've been drilled that your way of life is objectively "better" or "freer", but its often good to take a step back and look at the system so that - at the very least - you can hold your government to account for "why can't we do healthcare too, since we pay more per person for it in taxes anyway". [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
    - dang 8y ago
      The comment was not only downvoted but flagkilled. It takes time for the community's reaction to settle. There's something more important though: you helped make this horrible flamewar worse. If you post something like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16946815 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16946815, you have no basis to complain about others. If you saw a house on fire, or a forest, or a city park, I'm sure your first reaction wouldn't be to pour fuel on it. Please bring that instinct for good behavior here too. It's not as obvious that it's needed, but it is.
  - fdw 8y ago
    I don't think you'll care to read or think about this reply, but others might, and HN is for me also about open-minded discussion. I don't pay through my nose for healthcare. According to a quick Google search, it seems to be about what the average US resident pays (while I'm above average in income for my country). For that price, I don't ever have to worry about going to a doctor or hospital. I'm feeling sick - I go to the doctor. I have a toothache - I go to the doctor. I think I broke my finger - I go to the hospital, wait a few hours, and learn that everything is alright. I can't imagine having to wonder if the visit is really necessary, because I need the money. I don't want to have to choose between health and money. For me, this is comfort. Additionally, I have friends with chronic diseases. They cannot emigrate to the USA, because they couldn't pay the medicine. That doesn't sound like a first-world country to me, where you cannot afford to treat your sickness, even though you've got skills and a paying job. That sounds like a bad dystopian movie.
    - throwaway84742 8y ago
      I go to the doctor when I’m sick too, imagine that! And I too have a chronic disease for which I pay a princely sum of $10/mo as a co-pay for medication. It is true that Americans pay quite a bit more for healthcare. But our doctors make quite a bit more than European ones, too. I do like it when the person treating me is well off, and their income is largely decoupled from the whims of a random unelected government bureaucrat. It’s also true that the health insurance system badly needs an overhaul. But I’d very much like to keep it private, because our government is a money black hole.
  - fwdpropaganda 8y ago
    In all likelihood I make more than you and pay a lower tax rate. So we're both happy with the situation.
    - throwaway84742 8y ago
      I make about $500k a year. My effective tax rate is 28% (I’m not in Bay Area). This is, admittedly, not common. My reports make 200-250k, which is far more common. You?
      - fwdpropaganda 8y ago
        Haha of course you do, why not...
  - dang 8y ago
    If you post like this again, we will ban you. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stop wrecking this place with poisonous flamebait.
- Hnrobert42 8y ago
  I read something about the term “right” that I have yet to fully reconcile. For some rights, nothing is required of other people. E.g., freedom of speech, voting rights, even right to bear arms. Other rights require taking from others. Universal health, basic income, etc. requires taking money from some/all to give to others. I dont know that the second is necessarily bad, but it is an interesting distinction. However, it may be a false distinction. Child care leave may not require taking from the employer so much as establish that if the employer wants an employee’s work, a fair trade includes leave. Like I said, I haven’t fully thought this one through.
  - fwdpropaganda 8y ago
    > Child care leave may not require taking from the employer so much as establish that if the employer wants an employee’s work, a fair trade includes leave. I hear you, but I think the distinction isn't great because it's A) semantic more than anything, and B) too easy to take it into the realm of mental gymnastics, to the point the distinction loses all meaning. I could just as well argue that X right may not require taking from other people (in the form of taxes) so much as establish that if you want to be a part of our society (after all, no one is stopping you from leaving and go live in the jungle), a fair trade (i.e. the taxes you pay for the benefits you get) involves your taxes paying for X, and that this is true for all X.
- dang 8y ago
  You have been one of the worst offenders in this thread full of horrible violations of the HN guidelines. You've also been uncivil on HN many times before. This is really bad. I'm not going to ban you, because your recent history hasn't been as bad as this, but if you do this sort of flamewar on HN again, we will ban you. Please do not pour any trace of nationalistic poison, regardless of how badly other users are behaving. If you do, you're as bad as they are. This of course goes for every user, not just you. Please (re-)read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and do a much better job of using this site as intended from now on.
  - fwdpropaganda 8y ago
    > You have been one of the worst offenders in this thread I obviously disagree with the characterisation of what I said as "nationalistic poison", but I will no longer talk politics on HN to be on the safe side.
freedom2097 8y ago
This is actually wrong! You tell yourself this lie to keep going I guess! As a software engineer in the south of France mi salary is 70% of what I would get in the San Francisco area but my purchase power is way higher! Goods and services cost way less here than in the US!
- throwaway84742 8y ago
  You can get $350-400k/yr total in San Francisco as a mid-career IC SWE. I have surveyed what SWEs make in Europe and it brought a tear to my eye. I guess that’s why most of the good ones are already here. US health insurance costs about $13k a year for a family of 3, for a decent plan, and that’s if you pay for all of it yourself (ie you’re unemployed but wealthy, so don’t qualify for special rates). In-state tuition is also not too bad.
  - dijit 8y ago
    Seems like the upper end for my skillset is $168k with an average of around $130k https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-infrastructure-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,37.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-infrastruct... software developer is even less paid it seems: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-developer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,32.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-de...
    - throwaway84742 8y ago
      Glassdoor estimates are low, and they do not include equity, bonuses, etc, which can easily add up to more than the base. How do you think all those people are paying their insane rent? The best set up is to get Bay Area money without living there. It’s doable. :-)
      - dijit 8y ago
        Every argument you just made goes for the other side too, I have equity and bonus' which are not tied to my salary which double it fairly easily. So, at the end of the day, it's all about purchasing power. Which is very different depending on what economic band you're in and what place you live. For instance, there's no question that Bill Gates would be worse off in the Swedish tax system than the US one.. but that's not true of all people.
dang 8y ago
You started a wretched political/national flamewar in this thread and then heaped fuel on it to keep it going. We ban accounts that do this, so please don't do it again. You really violated the site rules quite egregiously here. Other commenters did too. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

fwdpropaganda 8y ago

> If you want all those government benefits in exchange for making 1/3rd of what one makes in the US, go right ahead. Over here we don't consider that healthcare and education are a "government benefit". We consider them rights. But you sound slightly offended. Like now you're trying to prove that some people like the USA. You don't have to prove anything dude.

throwaway84742 8y ago
Rights for which the government taxes you through the nose. Thanks, I’d rather pay my “expensive” private insurance while I rake in a ton more cash. Commies, smh
- leadingthenet 8y ago
  I can’t believe a comment which literally calls Europeans commies is this highly upvoted on HN. That’s why I’m smh.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - holydude 8y ago
    European mentality is really a lax commie mentality masquarading as good left wingy social democracy when in fact it is not. They just want to do capitalism somewhere else and reap the benefits to save face and pretend they are somewhat better than the capitalist nations in the north america and asia.
    - leadingthenet 8y ago
      I didn’t think people like you actually existed.
      - dijit 8y ago
        This is not a helpful argument. Please try to rebuff his points if you don't agree with them.
        leadingthenet 8y ago
        Mate, no offense, but there’s nothing to rebuff. When you are that far gone, people should have the right to mock you. Spouting meaningless platitudes does not an argument make, and we’d only be feeding his stupidity by answering any of those, frankly, ridiculous points. I mean, just look at the fantastic discussion your rebuff started.
        throwaway84742 8y ago
        “Far gone” is a matter of perspective. To me, you seem like you are “far gone”. And who’s to say that your perspective is more valid than mine.
      - fwdpropaganda 8y ago
        I know, these people are cartoonish. I thought they only existed in American movies.
    - dijit 8y ago
      To save us talking about ill defined social policies, I'm going to quickly define them (I'm not being condescending, it is easy for people to infer meaning from things like this) * Capitalism is an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state. * Communism a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs. * Socialism is a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. Doing any single one of these is a possible disaster, I won't get into the theories here, but lets assume extremes are unhealthy. Now, you're inferring that Europeans are "lax commies" which would mean that the goal is to get everything into the public hands. That's not quite the case, in fact it's not the case at all honestly, so it's not communism. Secondly, you refer to Europe as one political and economic model, it's not, there are many for instance the Nordic regions have their own model which is often referred to as "Nordic Capitalism" or "Nordic Social Democracy"[0] Finally, and I know this one is quite hard: Europeans typically are not nationalistic. Given that the rise of nationalism is seen as being very closely followed by facism; nationalism is a dirty word, and if you were to be described as "nationalist" it would be considered an insult in many European countries by the majority of the population. The principle problem here is that "patriotism" is synonymous with "nationalism". And Americans are very "patriotic", meaning any criticism of the country as a complete functioning system is met with hostility because so many people are so sensitive of the subject. I know it's hard to be objective when you've been drilled that your way of life is objectively "better" or "freer", but its often good to take a step back and look at the system so that - at the very least - you can hold your government to account for "why can't we do healthcare too, since we pay more per person for it in taxes anyway". [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
  - dang 8y ago
    The comment was not only downvoted but flagkilled. It takes time for the community's reaction to settle. There's something more important though: you helped make this horrible flamewar worse. If you post something like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16946815 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16946815, you have no basis to complain about others. If you saw a house on fire, or a forest, or a city park, I'm sure your first reaction wouldn't be to pour fuel on it. Please bring that instinct for good behavior here too. It's not as obvious that it's needed, but it is.
- fdw 8y ago
  I don't think you'll care to read or think about this reply, but others might, and HN is for me also about open-minded discussion. I don't pay through my nose for healthcare. According to a quick Google search, it seems to be about what the average US resident pays (while I'm above average in income for my country). For that price, I don't ever have to worry about going to a doctor or hospital. I'm feeling sick - I go to the doctor. I have a toothache - I go to the doctor. I think I broke my finger - I go to the hospital, wait a few hours, and learn that everything is alright. I can't imagine having to wonder if the visit is really necessary, because I need the money. I don't want to have to choose between health and money. For me, this is comfort. Additionally, I have friends with chronic diseases. They cannot emigrate to the USA, because they couldn't pay the medicine. That doesn't sound like a first-world country to me, where you cannot afford to treat your sickness, even though you've got skills and a paying job. That sounds like a bad dystopian movie.
  - throwaway84742 8y ago
    I go to the doctor when I’m sick too, imagine that! And I too have a chronic disease for which I pay a princely sum of $10/mo as a co-pay for medication. It is true that Americans pay quite a bit more for healthcare. But our doctors make quite a bit more than European ones, too. I do like it when the person treating me is well off, and their income is largely decoupled from the whims of a random unelected government bureaucrat. It’s also true that the health insurance system badly needs an overhaul. But I’d very much like to keep it private, because our government is a money black hole.
- fwdpropaganda 8y ago
  In all likelihood I make more than you and pay a lower tax rate. So we're both happy with the situation.
  - throwaway84742 8y ago
    I make about $500k a year. My effective tax rate is 28% (I’m not in Bay Area). This is, admittedly, not common. My reports make 200-250k, which is far more common. You?
    - fwdpropaganda 8y ago
      Haha of course you do, why not...
- dang 8y ago
  If you post like this again, we will ban you. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stop wrecking this place with poisonous flamebait.
Hnrobert42 8y ago
I read something about the term “right” that I have yet to fully reconcile. For some rights, nothing is required of other people. E.g., freedom of speech, voting rights, even right to bear arms. Other rights require taking from others. Universal health, basic income, etc. requires taking money from some/all to give to others. I dont know that the second is necessarily bad, but it is an interesting distinction. However, it may be a false distinction. Child care leave may not require taking from the employer so much as establish that if the employer wants an employee’s work, a fair trade includes leave. Like I said, I haven’t fully thought this one through.
- fwdpropaganda 8y ago
  > Child care leave may not require taking from the employer so much as establish that if the employer wants an employee’s work, a fair trade includes leave. I hear you, but I think the distinction isn't great because it's A) semantic more than anything, and B) too easy to take it into the realm of mental gymnastics, to the point the distinction loses all meaning. I could just as well argue that X right may not require taking from other people (in the form of taxes) so much as establish that if you want to be a part of our society (after all, no one is stopping you from leaving and go live in the jungle), a fair trade (i.e. the taxes you pay for the benefits you get) involves your taxes paying for X, and that this is true for all X.
dang 8y ago
You have been one of the worst offenders in this thread full of horrible violations of the HN guidelines. You've also been uncivil on HN many times before. This is really bad. I'm not going to ban you, because your recent history hasn't been as bad as this, but if you do this sort of flamewar on HN again, we will ban you. Please do not pour any trace of nationalistic poison, regardless of how badly other users are behaving. If you do, you're as bad as they are. This of course goes for every user, not just you. Please (re-)read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and do a much better job of using this site as intended from now on.
- fwdpropaganda 8y ago
  > You have been one of the worst offenders in this thread I obviously disagree with the characterisation of what I said as "nationalistic poison", but I will no longer talk politics on HN to be on the safe side.

freedom2097 8y ago

This is actually wrong! You tell yourself this lie to keep going I guess! As a software engineer in the south of France mi salary is 70% of what I would get in the San Francisco area but my purchase power is way higher! Goods and services cost way less here than in the US!

throwaway84742 8y ago
You can get $350-400k/yr total in San Francisco as a mid-career IC SWE. I have surveyed what SWEs make in Europe and it brought a tear to my eye. I guess that’s why most of the good ones are already here. US health insurance costs about $13k a year for a family of 3, for a decent plan, and that’s if you pay for all of it yourself (ie you’re unemployed but wealthy, so don’t qualify for special rates). In-state tuition is also not too bad.
- dijit 8y ago
  Seems like the upper end for my skillset is $168k with an average of around $130k https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-infrastructure-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,37.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-infrastruct... software developer is even less paid it seems: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-developer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,32.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-de...
  - throwaway84742 8y ago
    Glassdoor estimates are low, and they do not include equity, bonuses, etc, which can easily add up to more than the base. How do you think all those people are paying their insane rent? The best set up is to get Bay Area money without living there. It’s doable. :-)
    - dijit 8y ago
      Every argument you just made goes for the other side too, I have equity and bonus' which are not tied to my salary which double it fairly easily. So, at the end of the day, it's all about purchasing power. Which is very different depending on what economic band you're in and what place you live. For instance, there's no question that Bill Gates would be worse off in the Swedish tax system than the US one.. but that's not true of all people.

dang 8y ago

You started a wretched political/national flamewar in this thread and then heaped fuel on it to keep it going. We ban accounts that do this, so please don't do it again. You really violated the site rules quite egregiously here. Other commenters did too. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html