7 ms·

Wooden Statue Found in Late 1890s Likely Dates Back More Than 11,000 Years

129 points by forgingahead 9y ago

8bitsrule 9y ago
Fascinating object. Got me thinking. While the wood is probably at least that old, the carving isn't necessarily quite that old. WP says Larch is 'waterproof' and 'resistant to rot when in contact with the ground'. And it's a conifer that loses its needles in the fall. Now consider that it can grow as far north as 'the tundra and polar ice' and is 'very long-lived'. Consider that the outside was dated at 9800ya in the 1990s, but in 2014 the core (the oldest part of any tree) dates to 11,600. Here in the US, the glaciers were done melting to about 45N by 9000 ya. (Yekaterinburg is at 56N, so maybe more like 7500ya?). Just for fun, suppose that the wood had been stuck in a glacier for a very long time, say 2000 years. When the carver found it. Are there any C14-dating/Russian glaciologist folk here to explain those two sample dates? Could it have been in a glacier longer than 2000 years?
- ichchus 8y ago
  i was thinking this too. carving or manipulation time frame methods would be good but out side of possible tools used i dont see it yet and even then it gives a time frame and posibility not neccissarily an actuality. this is an interesting piece though non the less.
- codedokode 8y ago
  > While the wood is probably at least that old, the carving isn't necessarily quite that old. The russian article on Wikipedia says that there was a research including examining the surface with a microscope and it shows that the statue is made from a freshly chopped tree with stone tools. The difference is dates is because the research in 2015 was done using another method [1] . The age of the tree is estimated to be around 160 years old. [1] https://phys.org/news/2018-04-wooden-shigir-idol-egyptian-pyramids.html https://phys.org/news/2018-04-wooden-shigir-idol-egyptian-py...
  - 8bitsrule 8y ago
    Thanks for the ru.wiki check! Maybe it was carried to the peat bog by meltwater. (Peat bogs are great for preservation.) 11,600 ya is the world-wide beginning of Holocene glacial retreat. If the dates are right it's amazing that this marks that time -and- is a spectacular cultural marker. Can't help but think of totem poles. The science has to be done right. Groundwater can contain 'aged carbon', low in C-14, derived from rocks through which it has passed. Things soaked in it can look -much- older than they are.
primitur 8y ago
Wow, the more time goes on, the more "Behold!! The Protong!" ( * ) seems to be an accurate assessment of things. He specifically targetted this artifact as an example of evidence that ancient civilizations were a lot more lucid than we thought. Szukalski had some crack-pot ideas (Zermatism, Protong), but the idea that humans hadn't gotten quite the right perspective on ancient art is one of his most endearing claims. (* - https://www.amazon.com/Behold-Protong-Robert-Williams/dp/0867195193 https://www.amazon.com/Behold-Protong-Robert-Williams/dp/086... - a fascinating book, if only for the art lover who wants a perspective not usually proferred by the mainstream..)
- blattimwind 8y ago
  The way I remember history taught in school is essentially "pre-history (first human settlements)" => giant leap to => "ancient high culture starting 3000 BCE", with a supplementary piece of info going like "well we don't really know yet what happened between those two". Back then it was clear to me, and so almost certainly to the researcher/historians of the time, that you don't go from relatively simple cave paintings to insanely complex languages, forms of government and far-fetched empires just by snapping a finger twice.
  - meric 8y ago
    In every civilisation there’s founding myths, Romulus and Remus from Rome, Yellow Emperor from China, Abraham from Israel, the Dreaming for indigenous Australians. I wonder how much those myths might actually be telling us about those otherwise undocumented times.
    - verylittlemeat 8y ago
      It makes me wonder what founding myths we live with today. I wont even bother to speculate at the risk of promoting flamebait but I imagine our myths are some of our most scared truths. Of course that's not to say they're conspiracies but just very convenient lies.
      - 8y ago
hownottowrite 8y ago
Actual Study: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/early-art-in-the-urals-new-research-on-the-wooden-sculpture-from-shigir/1EE151AB1E571968B10267E48B78362A# https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/ea...
del_operator 8y ago
I'm no expert, but examine the front of the Shigir Idol and see three distinct sections of patterns: lines, single wave, double wave. I was "stumped." I wanted to get to the root of this. Borrowing a technique from Carl Sagan's Contact where Arroway and Hadden interpreted the Vega message, I then thought like I was from Planet X. The meaning of these three sections became obvious in higher dimensions... "I am Groot"
ajross 8y ago
That's interesting and all, but it's been confusingly oversold by the headline and lede. That an object of this size has been preserved is interesting, but there's nothing particularly notable about artwork of that age. People have been carving and painting images for 40-50ky.
- chiefalchemist 8y ago
  I'm under the impression that this is considered intentional art. I could be mistaken, but the previous carvings and paintings you mention were purely functional. What's noteworthy here is intent. I think ;)
  - singularity2001 8y ago
    What's unintentional about (abstract) venus figurines and Lionman?
  - guelo 8y ago
    I don't think that's correct, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_the_Upper_Paleolithic https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_the_Upper_Paleolithic
crystaln 8y ago
Why would anyone assume that our species existed for 300k years without making art? This makes no sense and seems to be the claim that must be proven, not vice versa.
- guelo 8y ago
  Some anthropologists believe there was some kind of mental revolution in humans that led to the emergence of art and culture around 50k-80k years ago.
singularity2001 8y ago
Interesting that they were discovered near the Ural mountains. Though only a very weak signal it does somehow ring a bell with göbekli tepe and surrounding figurines of similar shape.
fovc 8y ago
How much data do we have on civilizations going back that far? I imagine that "progress" was not monotonically up, so there might be peaks of development above the trendline that we don't know about because of missing data

129 points by forgingahead 9y ago

Fascinating object. Got me thinking. While the wood is probably at least that old, the carving isn't necessarily quite that old. WP says Larch is 'waterproof' and 'resistant to rot when in contact with the ground'. And it's a conifer that loses its needles in the fall. Now consider that it can grow as far north as 'the tundra and polar ice' and is 'very long-lived'. Consider that the outside was dated at 9800ya in the 1990s, but in 2014 the core (the oldest part of any tree) dates to 11,600. Here in the US, the glaciers were done melting to about 45N by 9000 ya. (Yekaterinburg is at 56N, so maybe more like 7500ya?). Just for fun, suppose that the wood had been stuck in a glacier for a very long time, say 2000 years. When the carver found it. Are there any C14-dating/Russian glaciologist folk here to explain those two sample dates? Could it have been in a glacier longer than 2000 years?

ichchus 8y ago
i was thinking this too. carving or manipulation time frame methods would be good but out side of possible tools used i dont see it yet and even then it gives a time frame and posibility not neccissarily an actuality. this is an interesting piece though non the less.
codedokode 8y ago
> While the wood is probably at least that old, the carving isn't necessarily quite that old. The russian article on Wikipedia says that there was a research including examining the surface with a microscope and it shows that the statue is made from a freshly chopped tree with stone tools. The difference is dates is because the research in 2015 was done using another method [1] . The age of the tree is estimated to be around 160 years old. [1] https://phys.org/news/2018-04-wooden-shigir-idol-egyptian-pyramids.html https://phys.org/news/2018-04-wooden-shigir-idol-egyptian-py...
- 8bitsrule 8y ago
  Thanks for the ru.wiki check! Maybe it was carried to the peat bog by meltwater. (Peat bogs are great for preservation.) 11,600 ya is the world-wide beginning of Holocene glacial retreat. If the dates are right it's amazing that this marks that time -and- is a spectacular cultural marker. Can't help but think of totem poles. The science has to be done right. Groundwater can contain 'aged carbon', low in C-14, derived from rocks through which it has passed. Things soaked in it can look -much- older than they are.

primitur 8y ago

Wow, the more time goes on, the more "Behold!! The Protong!" ( * ) seems to be an accurate assessment of things. He specifically targetted this artifact as an example of evidence that ancient civilizations were a lot more lucid than we thought. Szukalski had some crack-pot ideas (Zermatism, Protong), but the idea that humans hadn't gotten quite the right perspective on ancient art is one of his most endearing claims. (* - https://www.amazon.com/Behold-Protong-Robert-Williams/dp/0867195193 https://www.amazon.com/Behold-Protong-Robert-Williams/dp/086... - a fascinating book, if only for the art lover who wants a perspective not usually proferred by the mainstream..)

blattimwind 8y ago
The way I remember history taught in school is essentially "pre-history (first human settlements)" => giant leap to => "ancient high culture starting 3000 BCE", with a supplementary piece of info going like "well we don't really know yet what happened between those two". Back then it was clear to me, and so almost certainly to the researcher/historians of the time, that you don't go from relatively simple cave paintings to insanely complex languages, forms of government and far-fetched empires just by snapping a finger twice.
- meric 8y ago
  In every civilisation there’s founding myths, Romulus and Remus from Rome, Yellow Emperor from China, Abraham from Israel, the Dreaming for indigenous Australians. I wonder how much those myths might actually be telling us about those otherwise undocumented times.
  - verylittlemeat 8y ago
    It makes me wonder what founding myths we live with today. I wont even bother to speculate at the risk of promoting flamebait but I imagine our myths are some of our most scared truths. Of course that's not to say they're conspiracies but just very convenient lies.
    - 8y ago

hownottowrite 8y ago

Actual Study: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/early-art-in-the-urals-new-research-on-the-wooden-sculpture-from-shigir/1EE151AB1E571968B10267E48B78362A# https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/ea...

del_operator 8y ago

I'm no expert, but examine the front of the Shigir Idol and see three distinct sections of patterns: lines, single wave, double wave. I was "stumped." I wanted to get to the root of this. Borrowing a technique from Carl Sagan's Contact where Arroway and Hadden interpreted the Vega message, I then thought like I was from Planet X. The meaning of these three sections became obvious in higher dimensions... "I am Groot"

ajross 8y ago

That's interesting and all, but it's been confusingly oversold by the headline and lede. That an object of this size has been preserved is interesting, but there's nothing particularly notable about artwork of that age. People have been carving and painting images for 40-50ky.

chiefalchemist 8y ago
I'm under the impression that this is considered intentional art. I could be mistaken, but the previous carvings and paintings you mention were purely functional. What's noteworthy here is intent. I think ;)
- singularity2001 8y ago
  What's unintentional about (abstract) venus figurines and Lionman?
- guelo 8y ago
  I don't think that's correct, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_the_Upper_Paleolithic https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_the_Upper_Paleolithic

crystaln 8y ago

Why would anyone assume that our species existed for 300k years without making art? This makes no sense and seems to be the claim that must be proven, not vice versa.

guelo 8y ago
Some anthropologists believe there was some kind of mental revolution in humans that led to the emergence of art and culture around 50k-80k years ago.

singularity2001 8y ago

Interesting that they were discovered near the Ural mountains. Though only a very weak signal it does somehow ring a bell with göbekli tepe and surrounding figurines of similar shape.

fovc 8y ago

How much data do we have on civilizations going back that far? I imagine that "progress" was not monotonically up, so there might be peaks of development above the trendline that we don't know about because of missing data