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>Most confounding to Munro and his team was the body construction of the Model 3. "This car is the heaviest body-in-white I've ever seen," he said, calling the

>Most confounding to Munro and his team was the body construction of the Model 3. "This car is the heaviest body-in-white I've ever seen," he said, calling the construction "ridiculous" and highlighting areas where Tesla needlessly added weight with things like excess metal flanges and overlapping layers of steel. "This adds weight without value," he said. Optimizing structural design is hard. There are plenty of examples of talented young engineers with lots of budget who can make a really clever and strong design, but it will frequently also be overengineered and far over weight or cost for its design purpose. An infamous example would be the Juicero juicer[0]. It takes a lot of experience and knowledge to make a highly optimized frame or structural component. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cp-BGQfpHQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cp-BGQfpHQ

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
> It takes a lot of experience and knowledge to make a highly optimized frame or structural component. And if you don't optimize your competitors will and they'll deliver better value and take your market share.
samstave 8y ago
If there is anything I want over engineered it is all things infrastructure. Bridges, buildings, planes and boats etc. Over-engineer them when life is on the line.
- oasisbob 8y ago
  Overbuilt and overengineered are two different things. Overbuild a car and you have mass in all the wrong places. Do it right, and you get passenger protection and crumple zones. The problems with over engineering are probably more subtle - you want time and money spent effectively.
- LoSboccacc 8y ago
  there's no reason to believe overengineering leads to safer results, yet alone competitive on the market or fit for the problem statement. case in point: airbus a380
  - leoc 8y ago
    I thought the basic problem with the A380 is that it's simply too big for how airlines want to run the majority of routes these days?
    - nordsieck 8y ago
      4 engine aircraft are technically more safe than 2 engine aircraft. Boeing and Airbus have just gotten so good at engineering safe 2 engine aircraft that companies can run them over oceans without too much trouble. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSxSgbNQi-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSxSgbNQi-g
      - ams6110 8y ago
        A four engine aircraft has four times the probability of an engine failure as a single engine aircraft. Of course it still has three engines left if that happens
    - LoSboccacc 8y ago
      And the fires
blattimwind 8y ago
The overbuilt body is most likely due to two factors: (i) Tesla does not have the design know-how to do better (ii) Tesla's manufacturing capability is below that of other car makers. As I've recently outlined in another comment, the manufacturing process for these is quite involved and finely tuned. People who do (i) also don't grow on trees, because self-supporting car bodies are basically the pinnacle of that particular engineering discipline; essentially no one outside that industry has a need for those requirements in that combination and manifestation.
Obi_Juan_Kenobi 8y ago
Maybe somewhat OT, but the flange review triggers some of the same criticisms I have of AvE. With Uncle B, any time he gets something wrong (and there are plenty of examples) it's always "I'm just a dude in the shop, having a laugh, etc. etc." But when he's tearing things about it's always, "this design is shit, these engineers suck, they're trying to fuck you over here there and everywhere." There's a huge disconnect in how he presents these critiques as though they're gospel truth, but he won't eat the humble pie. There's the exception here or there, he'll nibble at a particularly big piece, but overall it just doesn't serve the purpose of learning and understanding. He veers into some sort of moralizing about modern manufacturing. Don't get me wrong, on balance it's great and the juice-squeezer definitely deserved it, but it keeps me wary. In the same sense, I don't know about that flange. Is it wasteful? Could well be. Or maybe there's a good reason it's there. What I'd like is a good explanation of how they can be sure it's excessive. Tell me why. Maybe they do; I haven't a bit of the autoline video, but I don't see a good writeup.
- steve_adams_86 8y ago
  I'm with you to a point on AvE - I mostly watch him for kicks. However, the guy's used a lot of tools for a long time. He might actually have the experience and appropriate exposure to know what does and doesn't fail or endure under regular use. But yeah. He says it all with virtually no reserve, haha. Take most of it with a grain of salt. He does seem to know a lot about materials, though. Definitely not a dumb guy. His brain is chooching at around 50% at least
- Corrado 8y ago
  In order to know the how's and why's of the M&A teardown, you probably have to pay. I'm certain that their detailed analysis includes good explanations of how they know that flange is excessive, but they're not going to tell you for free.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

> It takes a lot of experience and knowledge to make a highly optimized frame or structural component. And if you don't optimize your competitors will and they'll deliver better value and take your market share.

samstave 8y ago

If there is anything I want over engineered it is all things infrastructure. Bridges, buildings, planes and boats etc. Over-engineer them when life is on the line.

oasisbob 8y ago
Overbuilt and overengineered are two different things. Overbuild a car and you have mass in all the wrong places. Do it right, and you get passenger protection and crumple zones. The problems with over engineering are probably more subtle - you want time and money spent effectively.
LoSboccacc 8y ago
there's no reason to believe overengineering leads to safer results, yet alone competitive on the market or fit for the problem statement. case in point: airbus a380
- leoc 8y ago
  I thought the basic problem with the A380 is that it's simply too big for how airlines want to run the majority of routes these days?
  - nordsieck 8y ago
    4 engine aircraft are technically more safe than 2 engine aircraft. Boeing and Airbus have just gotten so good at engineering safe 2 engine aircraft that companies can run them over oceans without too much trouble. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSxSgbNQi-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSxSgbNQi-g
    - ams6110 8y ago
      A four engine aircraft has four times the probability of an engine failure as a single engine aircraft. Of course it still has three engines left if that happens
  - LoSboccacc 8y ago
    And the fires

blattimwind 8y ago

The overbuilt body is most likely due to two factors: (i) Tesla does not have the design know-how to do better (ii) Tesla's manufacturing capability is below that of other car makers. As I've recently outlined in another comment, the manufacturing process for these is quite involved and finely tuned. People who do (i) also don't grow on trees, because self-supporting car bodies are basically the pinnacle of that particular engineering discipline; essentially no one outside that industry has a need for those requirements in that combination and manifestation.

Obi_Juan_Kenobi 8y ago

Maybe somewhat OT, but the flange review triggers some of the same criticisms I have of AvE. With Uncle B, any time he gets something wrong (and there are plenty of examples) it's always "I'm just a dude in the shop, having a laugh, etc. etc." But when he's tearing things about it's always, "this design is shit, these engineers suck, they're trying to fuck you over here there and everywhere." There's a huge disconnect in how he presents these critiques as though they're gospel truth, but he won't eat the humble pie. There's the exception here or there, he'll nibble at a particularly big piece, but overall it just doesn't serve the purpose of learning and understanding. He veers into some sort of moralizing about modern manufacturing. Don't get me wrong, on balance it's great and the juice-squeezer definitely deserved it, but it keeps me wary. In the same sense, I don't know about that flange. Is it wasteful? Could well be. Or maybe there's a good reason it's there. What I'd like is a good explanation of how they can be sure it's excessive. Tell me why. Maybe they do; I haven't a bit of the autoline video, but I don't see a good writeup.

steve_adams_86 8y ago
I'm with you to a point on AvE - I mostly watch him for kicks. However, the guy's used a lot of tools for a long time. He might actually have the experience and appropriate exposure to know what does and doesn't fail or endure under regular use. But yeah. He says it all with virtually no reserve, haha. Take most of it with a grain of salt. He does seem to know a lot about materials, though. Definitely not a dumb guy. His brain is chooching at around 50% at least
Corrado 8y ago
In order to know the how's and why's of the M&A teardown, you probably have to pay. I'm certain that their detailed analysis includes good explanations of how they know that flange is excessive, but they're not going to tell you for free.