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> For much of America's history, you could literally get in a wagon, head out west somewhere, plant a flag, and the land was yours. You also had to band togeth

by zapita 9y ago

> For much of America's history, you could literally get in a wagon, head out west somewhere, plant a flag, and the land was yours. You also had to band together with your fellow settlers into armed militias to kill the people whose land you were squatting. Those are the same militias which are protected in the second amendment. Their original purpose was "killing indians". The secondary purpose was to catch escaped slaves. It's always fun to remember where our real estate industry comes from. It's also interesting to see the hidden connections between America's passion for home ownership, its obsession with guns, and its racism.

aphextron 9y ago
Founded on genocide, built by slavery, maintained with brutal force. The American Way™
- RestlessMind 9y ago
  I don't see anything uniquely American about it. More like The Human Way™ :p (You do realize that all the societies are maintained with brutal force, right? And pick any country, go back a few centuries and you will find conflicts with as many casualties as American genocide).
  - aphextron 9y ago
    >I don't see anything uniquely American about it. More like The Human Way™ :p The uniquely American bit is the 300 years of institutionalized slavery which bred and sold humans like cattle by the millions and treated them as agricultural equipment on a scale unrivaled in all of human history. Of course many societies have had slavery, but the transatlantic African slave trade (which was the very economic basis of the New World, centered on tobacco, sugar, and cotton production) was far and beyond the most brutal act ever committed against a race of people.
    - aaron-lebo 9y ago
      If you want to play a numbers game, that's fine, but you don't provide any sources for your numbers, anyway. The slave trade was far from American-only. It began and continued through European support when those places were European colonies. It lasted well into the 19th century through Arab slave trading along the African coasts, and the Belgian Congo as of 1918 was as despotic a place as any. The Germans, British, and Dutch maimed, raped, tortured, and enslaved natives up until at least 1900 in southern Africa. The Dutch were notorious for their actions in the East. The Russians had defactos slavery and pogroms against minorities until at least 1850. You're being myopic about history. was far and beyond the most brutal act ever committed against a race of people This is a contest nobody wants to win, but I'm not sure how you can say that with such confidence when we had actions like the Holocaust, Japan's attacks on China in WW2, Turkish atrocities against Armenians, etc. This is the real world. Humans have historically been horrific to each other. If you really believe the US is some outlier, you are wrong.
stcredzero 9y ago
Those are the same militias which are protected in the second amendment. Their original purpose was "killing indians". False. The original purpose, predating even the government and the constitution, was to fight off armed oppression in the form of Hessian mercenaries and British soldiers. It's also interesting to see the hidden connections between America's passion for home ownership, its obsession with guns, and its racism. Gun Control was partly started by racist southern politicians who were horrified by the thought that black citizens would have the right to own firearms. https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/10/gun-control-racist-present-171006135904199.html https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/10/gun-contr...
- zapita 9y ago
  > False. The original purpose, predating even the government and the constitution, was to fight off armed oppression in the form of Hessian mercenaries and British soldiers. You do realize that colonial militias existed for over a century before the war for independence with the British Empire? What "armed oppression" were they fighting exactly?
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    You do realize that multiple native groups obtained their land through war and what at times could be called extermination? The Comanche are but one example. There are very few groups in history that ended up where they were peacefully. That's unfortunate, but depicting the European settlers as land-hungry thieving murderers should take into account that's what everyone did. Here's an account of the Fort Parker massacre, which wasn't uncommon on the frontier: Benjamin Parker was killed, and before the fort's gates could be closed, the raiders rushed inside. Silas Parker, who was outside with his brother, was killed before he was able to get back inside the gate. Samuel Frost and his son Robert were killed inside the gate, as they attempted to flee. John Parker's genitals were cut off and he was then scalped. His wife came out of the woods when she saw his torture and was captured.[5] Lucy Parker and her youngest two children were initially captured but were rescued by Luther Plummer as he ran up to the fort from the fields. Her two oldest children, however, along with Luther's wife (Rachel) and son, and Elizabeth Kellogg were successfully kidnapped. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Parker_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Parker_massacre Did those settlers deserve that? You can argue it, but this is a complex topic. Maybe some of those militias existed for good reasons, like if they didn't, people would get murdered by raiding parties, as they have in every locale in history.

by zapita 9y ago

aphextron 9y ago

Founded on genocide, built by slavery, maintained with brutal force. The American Way™

RestlessMind 9y ago
I don't see anything uniquely American about it. More like The Human Way™ :p (You do realize that all the societies are maintained with brutal force, right? And pick any country, go back a few centuries and you will find conflicts with as many casualties as American genocide).
- aphextron 9y ago
  >I don't see anything uniquely American about it. More like The Human Way™ :p The uniquely American bit is the 300 years of institutionalized slavery which bred and sold humans like cattle by the millions and treated them as agricultural equipment on a scale unrivaled in all of human history. Of course many societies have had slavery, but the transatlantic African slave trade (which was the very economic basis of the New World, centered on tobacco, sugar, and cotton production) was far and beyond the most brutal act ever committed against a race of people.
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    If you want to play a numbers game, that's fine, but you don't provide any sources for your numbers, anyway. The slave trade was far from American-only. It began and continued through European support when those places were European colonies. It lasted well into the 19th century through Arab slave trading along the African coasts, and the Belgian Congo as of 1918 was as despotic a place as any. The Germans, British, and Dutch maimed, raped, tortured, and enslaved natives up until at least 1900 in southern Africa. The Dutch were notorious for their actions in the East. The Russians had defactos slavery and pogroms against minorities until at least 1850. You're being myopic about history. was far and beyond the most brutal act ever committed against a race of people This is a contest nobody wants to win, but I'm not sure how you can say that with such confidence when we had actions like the Holocaust, Japan's attacks on China in WW2, Turkish atrocities against Armenians, etc. This is the real world. Humans have historically been horrific to each other. If you really believe the US is some outlier, you are wrong.

stcredzero 9y ago

Those are the same militias which are protected in the second amendment. Their original purpose was "killing indians". False. The original purpose, predating even the government and the constitution, was to fight off armed oppression in the form of Hessian mercenaries and British soldiers. It's also interesting to see the hidden connections between America's passion for home ownership, its obsession with guns, and its racism. Gun Control was partly started by racist southern politicians who were horrified by the thought that black citizens would have the right to own firearms. https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/10/gun-control-racist-present-171006135904199.html https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/10/gun-contr...

zapita 9y ago
> False. The original purpose, predating even the government and the constitution, was to fight off armed oppression in the form of Hessian mercenaries and British soldiers. You do realize that colonial militias existed for over a century before the war for independence with the British Empire? What "armed oppression" were they fighting exactly?
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  You do realize that multiple native groups obtained their land through war and what at times could be called extermination? The Comanche are but one example. There are very few groups in history that ended up where they were peacefully. That's unfortunate, but depicting the European settlers as land-hungry thieving murderers should take into account that's what everyone did. Here's an account of the Fort Parker massacre, which wasn't uncommon on the frontier: Benjamin Parker was killed, and before the fort's gates could be closed, the raiders rushed inside. Silas Parker, who was outside with his brother, was killed before he was able to get back inside the gate. Samuel Frost and his son Robert were killed inside the gate, as they attempted to flee. John Parker's genitals were cut off and he was then scalped. His wife came out of the woods when she saw his torture and was captured.[5] Lucy Parker and her youngest two children were initially captured but were rescued by Luther Plummer as he ran up to the fort from the fields. Her two oldest children, however, along with Luther's wife (Rachel) and son, and Elizabeth Kellogg were successfully kidnapped. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Parker_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Parker_massacre Did those settlers deserve that? You can argue it, but this is a complex topic. Maybe some of those militias existed for good reasons, like if they didn't, people would get murdered by raiding parties, as they have in every locale in history.