6 ms·

FYI, when orchestras started doing blind auditions, the numbers of women hired skyrocketed. Even though you'd think music would be the one area where what a per

FYI, when orchestras started doing blind auditions, the numbers of women hired skyrocketed. Even though you'd think music would be the one area where what a person looked like & whether they were male or female would be irrelevant. I think this is a great idea.

legostormtroopr 8y ago
Except sometimes blind hiring doesn't go the direction you are hoping. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-trial-to-improve-gender-equality-failing-study/8664888 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-tria...
- mpweiher 8y ago
  Yep. Also, the orchestra thing was 1952.
- nerdponx 8y ago
  Article didn't stop to get into why that happened. Were there just more qualified men in the applicant pool than women?
- tdb7893 8y ago
  Yeah, doing blind hiring won't fix most biases. People's careers are reflective of the oppourtunites that they have had and blind hiring seems like it has the potential to just reinforce existing societal biases instead of eliminating them.
ubernostrum 8y ago
This article is relevant for the discussion: https://peerj.com/articles/cs-111/ https://peerj.com/articles/cs-111/ They explored a lot of factors to do with gender in a data set of several years' worth of public pull requests on GitHub. One of the more interesting findings was that women's pull requests get accepted more often, but that a couple factors can strongly affect that, including whether the person reviewing the PR knows the author of the PR is a woman: For outsiders, we see evidence for gender bias: women’s acceptance rates drop by 12.0% when their gender is identifiable, compared to when it is not (χ2(df = 1, n = 16, 258) = 158, p < .001). There is a smaller 3.8% drop for men (χ2(df = 1, n = 608,764) = 39, p < .001). Women have a higher acceptance rate of pull requests overall (as we reported earlier), but when they are outsiders and their gender is identifiable, they have a lower acceptance rate than men.
- legostormtroopr 8y ago
  This doesn't necessarily imply causation - that being a woman causes people to accept your pull requests. Identification online is totally voluntary, so perhaps there is something about people who feel the need to specify their gender online, when it isn't necessary (such as when coding) that causes their pull requests to be rejected more.
  - true_religion 8y ago
    People on GitHub use their photos as their avatars so it's truly trivial to determine gender.
    - legostormtroopr 8y ago
      Some people do use their photos. Many people don’t. It’s not “trivial” to determine anyone’s gender on GitHub.
      - true_religion 8y ago
        I had meant to say "many" people---as in many people in my experience. To me, it's not very surprising as in many countries your picture is customarily included in your curriculum vitae, and as Github is seen as a professional site akin to LinkedIn, people simply put up their pictures there as well. This is anecdotal, but it's very rare for me to interact with someone on Github and have no idea as to their real name, gender, and face. --- I'll also add, there does seem to be cultural divide between us---as noted that you believe that people have to "feel a need" to add any information (photo/real name) that would show their gender when it isn't "necessary". Whereas I feel that "real life" identification is the default, and pseudo-anonymity is a considered choice.
  - UncleMeat 8y ago
    That is possible but without some data, any data, to back that hypothesis up it becomes fairly useless. Science doesn't really work by dismissing papers by throwing out unsupported alternative explanations for data.

legostormtroopr 8y ago

Except sometimes blind hiring doesn't go the direction you are hoping. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-trial-to-improve-gender-equality-failing-study/8664888 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-tria...

mpweiher 8y ago
Yep. Also, the orchestra thing was 1952.
nerdponx 8y ago
Article didn't stop to get into why that happened. Were there just more qualified men in the applicant pool than women?
tdb7893 8y ago
Yeah, doing blind hiring won't fix most biases. People's careers are reflective of the oppourtunites that they have had and blind hiring seems like it has the potential to just reinforce existing societal biases instead of eliminating them.

ubernostrum 8y ago

This article is relevant for the discussion: https://peerj.com/articles/cs-111/ https://peerj.com/articles/cs-111/ They explored a lot of factors to do with gender in a data set of several years' worth of public pull requests on GitHub. One of the more interesting findings was that women's pull requests get accepted more often, but that a couple factors can strongly affect that, including whether the person reviewing the PR knows the author of the PR is a woman: For outsiders, we see evidence for gender bias: women’s acceptance rates drop by 12.0% when their gender is identifiable, compared to when it is not (χ2(df = 1, n = 16, 258) = 158, p < .001). There is a smaller 3.8% drop for men (χ2(df = 1, n = 608,764) = 39, p < .001). Women have a higher acceptance rate of pull requests overall (as we reported earlier), but when they are outsiders and their gender is identifiable, they have a lower acceptance rate than men.

legostormtroopr 8y ago
This doesn't necessarily imply causation - that being a woman causes people to accept your pull requests. Identification online is totally voluntary, so perhaps there is something about people who feel the need to specify their gender online, when it isn't necessary (such as when coding) that causes their pull requests to be rejected more.
- true_religion 8y ago
  People on GitHub use their photos as their avatars so it's truly trivial to determine gender.
  - legostormtroopr 8y ago
    Some people do use their photos. Many people don’t. It’s not “trivial” to determine anyone’s gender on GitHub.
    - true_religion 8y ago
      I had meant to say "many" people---as in many people in my experience. To me, it's not very surprising as in many countries your picture is customarily included in your curriculum vitae, and as Github is seen as a professional site akin to LinkedIn, people simply put up their pictures there as well. This is anecdotal, but it's very rare for me to interact with someone on Github and have no idea as to their real name, gender, and face. --- I'll also add, there does seem to be cultural divide between us---as noted that you believe that people have to "feel a need" to add any information (photo/real name) that would show their gender when it isn't "necessary". Whereas I feel that "real life" identification is the default, and pseudo-anonymity is a considered choice.
- UncleMeat 8y ago
  That is possible but without some data, any data, to back that hypothesis up it becomes fairly useless. Science doesn't really work by dismissing papers by throwing out unsupported alternative explanations for data.