5 ms·

> If people don't even know what gender you are/what color your skin is, can they actually be intentionally racist/sexist towards you? Not directly, but often

> If people don't even know what gender you are/what color your skin is, can they actually be intentionally racist/sexist towards you? Not directly, but often indirectly since in such a situation it is common to assume you are a white male. That's a bit off-putting if you are not one, but you might put up with it rather than clarifying your gender/race if doing so opens you up to a risk of direct sexism/racism

Jill_the_Pill 8y ago
I use my initial on SE to conceal my gender, and I am usually assumed to be male in third-person references.
- LeoNatan25 8y ago
  Does that matter on a site like SO? I usually use “they” not to assume gender, but does it really bother you if someone assumes male?
  - chillfox 8y ago
    Don't know about others, but for me the answer is: A little bit. Not a huge amount, not because someone on the internet got it wrong. But because it is a reminder that I basically have to try and hide my gender on a huge part of the internet to not be harassed. I already have to stay away from LinkedIn unless I am applying for a job due to guys thinking it is a dating site. I have to pick ambiguous usernames that don't hint at gender. I occasionally have to throw an account away on a site. It bothers me that I basically have to pretend to be a dude on most of the internet because of assholes.
    - LeoNatan25 8y ago
      That’s a pretty sad tale. I cannot even presume what that’s like.
    - freeflight 8y ago
      > It bothers me that I basically have to pretend to be a dude on most of the internet because of assholes. At least on the Internet, you can pretend, in the meatspace, you simply can't. I also wouldn't call these people assholes, it might be convenient but imho it's needlessly vilifying people for simply behaving like they are expected to and how they've behaved for the longest time. Because for the longest time, and in most places to this day, males are expected to initiate contact, if they are interested in a relationship with a female. Now, one could argue that's outdated and "sexist", but that doesn't change the fact that large parts of our societies (and our behavior) are still shaped by these expectations. It's not that people want to be assholes, people simply don't want to be alone and for the longest time, the most common and accepted solution for that was for males to initiate contact and woo the females. Sadly this is an angle on all this that too often gets ignored in favor of some simplified narrative where all these guys are just a bunch of misogynists who consider women their property or something like that. While these types do exist too, it just feels dishonest to frame this whole issue like that. Because as a male the reality of the situation pretty much boils down to this: You are either proactive and approach people or... you stay alone. I'm not trying to dramatize here, I'm just trying to point something out that seems to be largely ignored in these kinds of discussions. Not everybody is a socialite who constantly meets new people without any effort, heck for the longest time we've been told that female brains are explicitly better at socializing that than male brains (or is that considered sexist now too?). So what are males supposed to do in this situation? Just sit tight until a female approaches them? That's pretty much a "forever alone" sentence for the vast majority of males. That's why at some point for many males this becomes a simple issue of game theory: You can't meet new females without approaching new females, the more new females you approach the higher the likelihood that you will end up with one of them. As sad and sterile as it might sound, in the end, it often just boils down to "trying often enough" and it's been that way for the longest time and I'm pretty certain this is engrained in our nature to a certain degree. Millions of years of behavioral evolution don't just vanish in a matter of years.
  - Jill_the_Pill 8y ago
    Yeah, kind of. True or not, I feel the assumption is that if I ask a sensible question or give a good answer, I must be a guy. I don't bother to correct, given the environment, so the stereotype is reinforced. But at the same time, I do want that gender ambiguity so I am treated as an equal. It's a funny catch-22. "They" is a good compromise.
2muchcoffeeman 8y ago
I’m not even sure what to say to that. Other people assuming you are like them and treating you the SAME as they would treat all the other SO members is literally the outcome we want isn’t it? We’re being treated equally. But now people are being offended because they aren’t being treated differently based on information the other parties don’t have? What?
- cheschire 8y ago
  What “we” want is a bunch of kinda aligned stuff to accomplish reasonably similar goals. I don’t think SO wants people to treat people the same by starting with the assumption that I am like you. I think they want the opposite. I think they want you to stop assuming things about the person you’re talking to altogether, and start baking that caution into your interactions.
- AdeptusAquinas 8y ago
  Try inverting your thinking - how would you like it if the only way you can get treated with respect is to allow others to assume you are something you are not? Its textbook alienation. On SO its likely not as bad as the rest of the net, but it'd be naive to assume its perfect: harassment aside, I imagine obviously female commentators get a hefty dose of mansplaining thrown their way
  - 2muchcoffeeman 8y ago
    > how would you like it if the only way you can get treated with respect is to allow others to assume you are something you are not? Fair enough if you call people out when they know something about the person they're interacting with. But you're suggesting people are prejudiced because they thought the wrong thing.
ibeckermayer 8y ago
How would you treat a white male differently from any other demographic on a technical forum? This identity politics bullshit is an anti-intellectual cancer. Truth is universal, race, gender, etc have nothing at all to do with it.

Jill_the_Pill 8y ago

I use my initial on SE to conceal my gender, and I am usually assumed to be male in third-person references.

LeoNatan25 8y ago
Does that matter on a site like SO? I usually use “they” not to assume gender, but does it really bother you if someone assumes male?
- chillfox 8y ago
  Don't know about others, but for me the answer is: A little bit. Not a huge amount, not because someone on the internet got it wrong. But because it is a reminder that I basically have to try and hide my gender on a huge part of the internet to not be harassed. I already have to stay away from LinkedIn unless I am applying for a job due to guys thinking it is a dating site. I have to pick ambiguous usernames that don't hint at gender. I occasionally have to throw an account away on a site. It bothers me that I basically have to pretend to be a dude on most of the internet because of assholes.
  - LeoNatan25 8y ago
    That’s a pretty sad tale. I cannot even presume what that’s like.
  - freeflight 8y ago
    > It bothers me that I basically have to pretend to be a dude on most of the internet because of assholes. At least on the Internet, you can pretend, in the meatspace, you simply can't. I also wouldn't call these people assholes, it might be convenient but imho it's needlessly vilifying people for simply behaving like they are expected to and how they've behaved for the longest time. Because for the longest time, and in most places to this day, males are expected to initiate contact, if they are interested in a relationship with a female. Now, one could argue that's outdated and "sexist", but that doesn't change the fact that large parts of our societies (and our behavior) are still shaped by these expectations. It's not that people want to be assholes, people simply don't want to be alone and for the longest time, the most common and accepted solution for that was for males to initiate contact and woo the females. Sadly this is an angle on all this that too often gets ignored in favor of some simplified narrative where all these guys are just a bunch of misogynists who consider women their property or something like that. While these types do exist too, it just feels dishonest to frame this whole issue like that. Because as a male the reality of the situation pretty much boils down to this: You are either proactive and approach people or... you stay alone. I'm not trying to dramatize here, I'm just trying to point something out that seems to be largely ignored in these kinds of discussions. Not everybody is a socialite who constantly meets new people without any effort, heck for the longest time we've been told that female brains are explicitly better at socializing that than male brains (or is that considered sexist now too?). So what are males supposed to do in this situation? Just sit tight until a female approaches them? That's pretty much a "forever alone" sentence for the vast majority of males. That's why at some point for many males this becomes a simple issue of game theory: You can't meet new females without approaching new females, the more new females you approach the higher the likelihood that you will end up with one of them. As sad and sterile as it might sound, in the end, it often just boils down to "trying often enough" and it's been that way for the longest time and I'm pretty certain this is engrained in our nature to a certain degree. Millions of years of behavioral evolution don't just vanish in a matter of years.
- Jill_the_Pill 8y ago
  Yeah, kind of. True or not, I feel the assumption is that if I ask a sensible question or give a good answer, I must be a guy. I don't bother to correct, given the environment, so the stereotype is reinforced. But at the same time, I do want that gender ambiguity so I am treated as an equal. It's a funny catch-22. "They" is a good compromise.

2muchcoffeeman 8y ago

I’m not even sure what to say to that. Other people assuming you are like them and treating you the SAME as they would treat all the other SO members is literally the outcome we want isn’t it? We’re being treated equally. But now people are being offended because they aren’t being treated differently based on information the other parties don’t have? What?

cheschire 8y ago
What “we” want is a bunch of kinda aligned stuff to accomplish reasonably similar goals. I don’t think SO wants people to treat people the same by starting with the assumption that I am like you. I think they want the opposite. I think they want you to stop assuming things about the person you’re talking to altogether, and start baking that caution into your interactions.
AdeptusAquinas 8y ago
Try inverting your thinking - how would you like it if the only way you can get treated with respect is to allow others to assume you are something you are not? Its textbook alienation. On SO its likely not as bad as the rest of the net, but it'd be naive to assume its perfect: harassment aside, I imagine obviously female commentators get a hefty dose of mansplaining thrown their way
- 2muchcoffeeman 8y ago
  > how would you like it if the only way you can get treated with respect is to allow others to assume you are something you are not? Fair enough if you call people out when they know something about the person they're interacting with. But you're suggesting people are prejudiced because they thought the wrong thing.

ibeckermayer 8y ago

How would you treat a white male differently from any other demographic on a technical forum? This identity politics bullshit is an anti-intellectual cancer. Truth is universal, race, gender, etc have nothing at all to do with it.