5 ms·

Totally agree. While I do think “newer coders” may very likely feel unwelcome, as an extension of the elitism issue, there’s no mechanism by which “people of co

by jakear 9y ago

Totally agree. While I do think “newer coders” may very likely feel unwelcome, as an extension of the elitism issue, there’s no mechanism by which “people of color”, “women”, or “minorities” can even be identified... I fear people are subconsciously correlating these groups with “less able coders”. Obviously this correlation serves only to damage.

Fomite 9y ago
I should note that on several sites this isn't particularly true - for example, on Academia.SE it's pretty easy to know/guess and the questions are often about these marginalized groups. ...and when they make Hot Network Questions, the influx of people from Stack Overflow is highly correlated with an immediate drop in the quality of answers and essentially the ruination of the question, to the point that several high rep users, myself included, have asked if we could opt out of HNQ as a concept.
freeflight 9y ago
> there’s no mechanism by which “people of color”, “women”, or “minorities” can even be identified That's a legit question: If people don't even know what gender you are/what color your skin is, can they actually be intentionally racist/sexist towards you? Which makes me wonder if the actual wrong turn we took was making social media as prevalent as it is today. 20 years ago people on the www were really careful about sharing personal details. People liked their anonymity, there was equality in anonymity! Personal details were only exchanged with those deemed trustworthy enough after enough positive interaction. But these days anonymity is nearly criminalized, while in some circles open self-display on social media is borderline worshipped as it has become the modern equivalent of "making it big on TV". Somewhere in there is a relation between crappy TV casting shows, which most people only watch to see jurors be mean to the applicants, and social media. Nowadays social media are our modern TV casting shows and everybody can participate in being the nasty juror putting applicants down. Note: I know that Stack Overflow ain't considered social media, but these days it feels like these dynamics are pretty much prevalent everywhere.
- bcoughlan 9y ago
  I was just thinking the same thing recently with all of the Facebook shenanigans. Anonymity was common sense on the net 20 years ago. Many who grew up in that time will recognise the sentence "We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias". The dream of the net was a world in which only words mattered. We sold that out when our Github account, SO profile, email address proved to be useful for finding jobs or improving our social status.
  - freeflight 9y ago
    Facebook is especially strange in that regard. To this day it just feels weird writing people, I only know from the meatspace (friends&family), there. It's such an utterly different MO compared to my usual Internet-interactions that I sometimes struggle how to express myself just because I actually know these people. That's why I kinda liked having the Internet and meatspace firmly separated, since they started bleeding into each other it feels like everything has just gotten needlessly more complicated and hostile.
- AdeptusAquinas 9y ago
  > If people don't even know what gender you are/what color your skin is, can they actually be intentionally racist/sexist towards you? Not directly, but often indirectly since in such a situation it is common to assume you are a white male. That's a bit off-putting if you are not one, but you might put up with it rather than clarifying your gender/race if doing so opens you up to a risk of direct sexism/racism
  - Jill_the_Pill 9y ago
    I use my initial on SE to conceal my gender, and I am usually assumed to be male in third-person references.
    - LeoNatan25 9y ago
      Does that matter on a site like SO? I usually use “they” not to assume gender, but does it really bother you if someone assumes male?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Mithaldu 9y ago
Of course there are mechanisms. For example it is super easy to tell if an asker is indian, by their name. And often women chose names that allow a good guess. Other hints may also be contained in the name. Then there is the profile image, and of course the bio. And lastly, often the question itself can contain details that hint at things. Yes, people can hide these characteristics, but they shouldn't need to.
coryfklein 9y ago
> there’s no mechanism by which ... “women” ... can even be identified _No_ mechanism? Seriously? How about when the user is named "Jane Smith"? Or, heaven forbid, they actually use a PROFILE PICTURE with their ACTUAL FACE. Oh god the horror! I, as a white male with a caucasian sounding name have the privilege of being able to use my actual name on the internet. Women that want to be taken seriously don't even have that choice. Sure over time women figure out that anonymizing their gender online is a wise strategy, but how many brand new programming-enthusiasts are going to learn this when they have negative first experiences on the most popular Q&A platform for programmers? How many never return to contribute because of those negative experiences? It's no wonder you can't go to SO and find women, they either aren't contributing or they have effectively hidden themselves among the ranks of the men.
- KAdot 9y ago
  What is a "caucasian sounding name"? Do Zurab, Zahar, Zivadin, Zora or Artem sound like caucasian male names to you?
  - coryfklein 9y ago
    Yea, I am fairly certain I'm bastardizing the use of the word "caucasian" here. What I mean is that people with the name "Cory Klein" on their SO profile likely get treated differently than "Mohammud Bin Salmen" or "Lacey Richards".
- ruirr 9y ago
  meh. Loads of Asians pretending to be white women to see if they get away with more attention. Often in a while when they take photos we even see the reflection of the actual guy. They are have probably more "discrimination" for the bad questions than for being a "woman".

by jakear 9y ago

Fomite 9y ago

I should note that on several sites this isn't particularly true - for example, on Academia.SE it's pretty easy to know/guess and the questions are often about these marginalized groups. ...and when they make Hot Network Questions, the influx of people from Stack Overflow is highly correlated with an immediate drop in the quality of answers and essentially the ruination of the question, to the point that several high rep users, myself included, have asked if we could opt out of HNQ as a concept.

freeflight 9y ago

> there’s no mechanism by which “people of color”, “women”, or “minorities” can even be identified That's a legit question: If people don't even know what gender you are/what color your skin is, can they actually be intentionally racist/sexist towards you? Which makes me wonder if the actual wrong turn we took was making social media as prevalent as it is today. 20 years ago people on the www were really careful about sharing personal details. People liked their anonymity, there was equality in anonymity! Personal details were only exchanged with those deemed trustworthy enough after enough positive interaction. But these days anonymity is nearly criminalized, while in some circles open self-display on social media is borderline worshipped as it has become the modern equivalent of "making it big on TV". Somewhere in there is a relation between crappy TV casting shows, which most people only watch to see jurors be mean to the applicants, and social media. Nowadays social media are our modern TV casting shows and everybody can participate in being the nasty juror putting applicants down. Note: I know that Stack Overflow ain't considered social media, but these days it feels like these dynamics are pretty much prevalent everywhere.

bcoughlan 9y ago
I was just thinking the same thing recently with all of the Facebook shenanigans. Anonymity was common sense on the net 20 years ago. Many who grew up in that time will recognise the sentence "We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias". The dream of the net was a world in which only words mattered. We sold that out when our Github account, SO profile, email address proved to be useful for finding jobs or improving our social status.
- freeflight 9y ago
  Facebook is especially strange in that regard. To this day it just feels weird writing people, I only know from the meatspace (friends&family), there. It's such an utterly different MO compared to my usual Internet-interactions that I sometimes struggle how to express myself just because I actually know these people. That's why I kinda liked having the Internet and meatspace firmly separated, since they started bleeding into each other it feels like everything has just gotten needlessly more complicated and hostile.
AdeptusAquinas 9y ago
> If people don't even know what gender you are/what color your skin is, can they actually be intentionally racist/sexist towards you? Not directly, but often indirectly since in such a situation it is common to assume you are a white male. That's a bit off-putting if you are not one, but you might put up with it rather than clarifying your gender/race if doing so opens you up to a risk of direct sexism/racism
- Jill_the_Pill 9y ago
  I use my initial on SE to conceal my gender, and I am usually assumed to be male in third-person references.
  - LeoNatan25 9y ago
    Does that matter on a site like SO? I usually use “they” not to assume gender, but does it really bother you if someone assumes male?

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Mithaldu 9y ago

Of course there are mechanisms. For example it is super easy to tell if an asker is indian, by their name. And often women chose names that allow a good guess. Other hints may also be contained in the name. Then there is the profile image, and of course the bio. And lastly, often the question itself can contain details that hint at things. Yes, people can hide these characteristics, but they shouldn't need to.

coryfklein 9y ago

> there’s no mechanism by which ... “women” ... can even be identified _No_ mechanism? Seriously? How about when the user is named "Jane Smith"? Or, heaven forbid, they actually use a PROFILE PICTURE with their ACTUAL FACE. Oh god the horror! I, as a white male with a caucasian sounding name have the privilege of being able to use my actual name on the internet. Women that want to be taken seriously don't even have that choice. Sure over time women figure out that anonymizing their gender online is a wise strategy, but how many brand new programming-enthusiasts are going to learn this when they have negative first experiences on the most popular Q&A platform for programmers? How many never return to contribute because of those negative experiences? It's no wonder you can't go to SO and find women, they either aren't contributing or they have effectively hidden themselves among the ranks of the men.

KAdot 9y ago
What is a "caucasian sounding name"? Do Zurab, Zahar, Zivadin, Zora or Artem sound like caucasian male names to you?
- coryfklein 9y ago
  Yea, I am fairly certain I'm bastardizing the use of the word "caucasian" here. What I mean is that people with the name "Cory Klein" on their SO profile likely get treated differently than "Mohammud Bin Salmen" or "Lacey Richards".
ruirr 9y ago
meh. Loads of Asians pretending to be white women to see if they get away with more attention. Often in a while when they take photos we even see the reflection of the actual guy. They are have probably more "discrimination" for the bad questions than for being a "woman".