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Why is the world so desperate to pretend that irc doesn't exist? Why can't we just get a new irc spec with e2e in mind? Matrix is an extremely immature project

by jrq 8y ago

Why is the world so desperate to pretend that irc doesn't exist? Why can't we just get a new irc spec with e2e in mind? Matrix is an extremely immature project and the French gov is making an irresponsible move here to prop it up as a solution in any capacity. It's beta software! Where are the audits? Where are the formal verifications? Not that irc has those, I don't mean to juxtapose one not-good-enough product with another, but this is reaching a point of insanity. If you want security, use signal. If you don't trust signal, learn to trust scores of world renowned cryptographers, and use it anyways. And if you're still bored, renovate irc. Gosh this is just crazy. It's like saying the tesla 3 will be the authorized taxi vehicle on Mars. There's so much work yet to be done, it's a million years too early to start regulating and organizing something that's not even half built.

noahster11 8y ago
I think the problem with Signal is that it requires a phone number to sign up: which some people may not feel comfortable doing. On the other hand irc is nice, but it doesn't exactly have the media sharing tools that have become standard in chat clients (Discord, Slack, etc.). Although it is a little early for France to choose Matrix, at least e2e is becoming more standard, and countries are endorsing it.
Arathorn 8y ago
audit e.g.: https://www.nccgroup.trust/us/our-research/matrix-olm-cryptographic-review/ https://www.nccgroup.trust/us/our-research/matrix-olm-crypto... formal proofs e.g.: https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/jki.re/hSmkLkFGVUnrXjtYcjsCUsyS https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/jki.re/hSmkLkFG... Agreed that Matrix is still beta, but hopefully we are heading in the right direction and the end is in sight.
kqr 8y ago
I think I can relate to your point because I used to write comments like these. You're right. The world is desperate to pretend IRC doesn't exist. We should get a new IRC spec with e2e in mind. What surprised me is that Matrix is practically a modern IRC spec with e2e in mind. What's better is that the Matrix devs acknowledge this heritage. They don't pretend IRC doesn't exist. They're very up-front about loving IRC, and they have successfully brought over nearly every good feature of IRC into Matrix. At first I thought it was too good to be true, but it keeps on being good. I have waited for years for a decent IRC alternative which I can convince even my less technical friends and family to use, and Matrix is it. I truly feel like I'm on IRC with my family. It's insanely good. I even use the same client for both. Matrix can replace your Signal. It can replace your Telegram. It can replace your WhatsApp. It can replace your Facebook messenger. It can even replace IRC. It is that complete.
- jrq 8y ago
  It uses HTTP requests for transit! I know you don't actually know what youre talking about, so I'll explain: There is much more overhead to opening a connection and maintaining a connect and sending and receiving, to the degree that people with bad connections are excluded entirely from being able to reliably use it. This is not true with irc. People in third world countries can use irc. If you can ping, you can chat. We don't WANT a chat for less technical people. We want e2e safety. We should never prioritize """normal users""" over security in a security oriented proposal! That's insane! But hey, I'm sure youre just a teen with a laptop, so I won't hold it against you that you'd make such an irresponsible decision.
  - kqr 8y ago
    Insert counter-patronizing preamble here. ------8<--------------- While the overhead of setting up a fresh TCP connection for every exchange is non-trivial, I'm not sure "reliable on a bad connection" is a characteristic I would attribute to IRC. The protocol is notoriously unreliable to the point where established practise is to run a client on a server somewhere and then connect to that from your bad connection computers. People who don't lose IRC messages sent while their connection crapped out, while Matrix ensures their client is updated to reflect the current state of the servers as soon as they go online again. I believe also that modern HTTP options let you reuse the same connection for multiple requests, obviating much of the overhead. Not to mention that you are free to extend the Matrix server with alternative connection methods. We do want a chat for less technical people. In order for humanity to not screw over itself royally, we need to target the 99%, not the 1%. Things can be good and still target non-technical people, as long as they are open and federated. Of course, convenience does not trump security, but I don't see how that is the case here either.

by jrq 8y ago

noahster11 8y ago

I think the problem with Signal is that it requires a phone number to sign up: which some people may not feel comfortable doing. On the other hand irc is nice, but it doesn't exactly have the media sharing tools that have become standard in chat clients (Discord, Slack, etc.). Although it is a little early for France to choose Matrix, at least e2e is becoming more standard, and countries are endorsing it.

Arathorn 8y ago

audit e.g.: https://www.nccgroup.trust/us/our-research/matrix-olm-cryptographic-review/ https://www.nccgroup.trust/us/our-research/matrix-olm-crypto... formal proofs e.g.: https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/jki.re/hSmkLkFGVUnrXjtYcjsCUsyS https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/jki.re/hSmkLkFG... Agreed that Matrix is still beta, but hopefully we are heading in the right direction and the end is in sight.

kqr 8y ago

I think I can relate to your point because I used to write comments like these. You're right. The world is desperate to pretend IRC doesn't exist. We should get a new IRC spec with e2e in mind. What surprised me is that Matrix is practically a modern IRC spec with e2e in mind. What's better is that the Matrix devs acknowledge this heritage. They don't pretend IRC doesn't exist. They're very up-front about loving IRC, and they have successfully brought over nearly every good feature of IRC into Matrix. At first I thought it was too good to be true, but it keeps on being good. I have waited for years for a decent IRC alternative which I can convince even my less technical friends and family to use, and Matrix is it. I truly feel like I'm on IRC with my family. It's insanely good. I even use the same client for both. Matrix can replace your Signal. It can replace your Telegram. It can replace your WhatsApp. It can replace your Facebook messenger. It can even replace IRC. It is that complete.

jrq 8y ago
It uses HTTP requests for transit! I know you don't actually know what youre talking about, so I'll explain: There is much more overhead to opening a connection and maintaining a connect and sending and receiving, to the degree that people with bad connections are excluded entirely from being able to reliably use it. This is not true with irc. People in third world countries can use irc. If you can ping, you can chat. We don't WANT a chat for less technical people. We want e2e safety. We should never prioritize """normal users""" over security in a security oriented proposal! That's insane! But hey, I'm sure youre just a teen with a laptop, so I won't hold it against you that you'd make such an irresponsible decision.
- kqr 8y ago
  Insert counter-patronizing preamble here. ------8<--------------- While the overhead of setting up a fresh TCP connection for every exchange is non-trivial, I'm not sure "reliable on a bad connection" is a characteristic I would attribute to IRC. The protocol is notoriously unreliable to the point where established practise is to run a client on a server somewhere and then connect to that from your bad connection computers. People who don't lose IRC messages sent while their connection crapped out, while Matrix ensures their client is updated to reflect the current state of the servers as soon as they go online again. I believe also that modern HTTP options let you reuse the same connection for multiple requests, obviating much of the overhead. Not to mention that you are free to extend the Matrix server with alternative connection methods. We do want a chat for less technical people. In order for humanity to not screw over itself royally, we need to target the 99%, not the 1%. Things can be good and still target non-technical people, as long as they are open and federated. Of course, convenience does not trump security, but I don't see how that is the case here either.