4 ms·

Here’s a slightly different response that is hopefully more welcoming. “The error message says the problem is on line 49 but you haven’t shown that line in you

Here’s a slightly different response that is hopefully more welcoming. “The error message says the problem is on line 49 but you haven’t shown that line in your example code. Can you please show the code referred to on line 49 and the surrounding code for context?” I think power users on SO are frustrated by newer users not learning the rules and not helping themselves. But if you respond with kindness you’re teaching somebody (and that’s what answerers are there to do!) how to better contribute in future.

bitL 8y ago
Make a Deep Learning bot inserting whatever ornamentation of sentences you like. You can choose multiple styles and personalize for whatever makes you feel good. Why require one single standard from everyone? The answer that was "offensive" was just a standard dry answer like you hear at any top university everywhere; I found "(brutal) exercise is left to the reader" way more offensive.
- jsmeaton 8y ago
  No one claimed the answer was offensive. It's unnecessarily condescending though. If you, as a senior developer, spoke to a junior developer on their first day at a new job in the same way, they'd be very unlikely to come to you for help in the future. Learning how to interpret error messages and extract the important information is a skill. What may seem obvious to you may not be obvious to someone with barely any experience. > was just a standard dry answer like you hear at any top university everywhere Which makes it OK? If university lecturers are speaking to new students trying to learn in this way, they shouldn't be teaching new students.
  - bitL 8y ago
    I had gazillion encounters when senior engineers/managers were unbelievably condescending, especially when they saw a capable competitor in you. The keyword is resilience, are you going to gain this virtue, or are you going to complain everywhere and cry on all available shoulders, and then once you get what you wanted, start backstabbing anyone that helped you to keep them down and forget about what put you there? I was one of those "useful idiots" that was helping to my utmost capacity others, wasting time I could have spent working on bigger projects helping humanity. Every single case when those people got what they wanted stopped recognizing me and called me only when they needed something. I am no longer than person. If you really want something, work on it to the full extent of your own capabilities, get ready to be beaten from left and right and figure out how to move forward. Don't expect help from around you. When somebody shows generosity to you, treat it as a wonderful bonus you try to return somehow someday, not a requirement.
    - jsmeaton 8y ago
      > If you really want something, work on it to the full extent of your own capabilities, get ready to be beaten from left and right and figure out how to move forward. Don't expect help from around you. This should not be an expectation of the world, and I'm sorry you've had the experiences you've had to see it as such. This is exactly what people are complaining about when they say tech is hostile. It's not just hostile to minorities, it can be hostile to everybody. We can choose to do unto others, or we can choose to break that cycle and be more welcoming. If you're unable to do this on stackoverflow, then may I suggest you don't participate.
      - bitL 8y ago
        Frankly, resilience is necessity. The better you are, the more you are eclipsing the others, the stronger averse reaction you get everywhere. People could be your best friends until you escape their crab bucket, then you are suddenly a well-known enemy and rumors start spreading. I am no longer going out of my way to help those people; I believe they deserve where they are as they chose to stay in the bucket of their own loathing. But I am not going to be nasty to them at all. Their kids still have potential, so those are treated without indifference.
nanis 8y ago
> Can you please show the code referred to on line 49 and the surrounding code for context?” If you are paying me my hourly, I'll pretty please you to no end. Otherwise, I am not sure why I am expected to beg for people to give information that would help me help them.
- jsmeaton 8y ago
  Then move on and don't respond at all. Leave the begging to the users that want to help new users get better. There's a genuine complaint that responses to new users are often harsher than required. "I shouldn't have to beg for information" is not a valid response to that criticism. Answerers have no idea about the skill level of the people asking the questions. Their english might not be so good. This might be the first time someone is programming and they don't know which line in a stack trace is particularly important. They Need Help. If you're not willing to help users at that skill level, then don't. But it's totally unfair to criticise them.
  - nanis 8y ago
    > Then move on and don't respond at all. You misunderstand. If you are paying me, I have no problem letting you spend more of your money by not giving enough information to solve the problem. I will point out once, and if you express the desire that I spend more time validating you, I will gladly do that. As it stands, you should keep in mind that you don't get to tell me what to do. Telling someone "we can't figure out what's wrong on line 49 if you don't show us what's on line 49" is not condescending, rude, discriminatory, racist, sexist, etc etc at all. It is a factual statement that is aimed at pointing out exactly what the person who is seeking help needs to do to get said help. Now, if I point something out like this, and I get a response like yours, I move on. Before moving on, however, I do vote to close the question because 1) there isn't enough information to diagnose the problem; and 2) the OP is unwilling to provide it. If you think I did something wrong in my response to you, you can flag my response for moderator attention. If that is not resolved to your liking, you can post on Meta. It is interesting to me that supposedly all these people who just want more niceness are the ones calling high-rep users and moderators assholes, insulting them indiscriminately etc. As I mentioned before, you can always go on Meta, and suggest ways to improve https://stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-ask https://stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-ask . If a first time user fails to follow the recommendations therein, it is incumbent upon the people who are trying to help to point it out so the mistake can be corrected. If people persist in not following advice, instead accusing people of all sorts of nasty things, they are unlikely to get the help they want. Keep in mind that some of these people may be writing the software for your bank or may end up next to you in that open floor plan office of yours. Helping them learn how to most effectively find answers to their questions may help you save time and aggravation later on.

bitL 8y ago

Make a Deep Learning bot inserting whatever ornamentation of sentences you like. You can choose multiple styles and personalize for whatever makes you feel good. Why require one single standard from everyone? The answer that was "offensive" was just a standard dry answer like you hear at any top university everywhere; I found "(brutal) exercise is left to the reader" way more offensive.

jsmeaton 8y ago
No one claimed the answer was offensive. It's unnecessarily condescending though. If you, as a senior developer, spoke to a junior developer on their first day at a new job in the same way, they'd be very unlikely to come to you for help in the future. Learning how to interpret error messages and extract the important information is a skill. What may seem obvious to you may not be obvious to someone with barely any experience. > was just a standard dry answer like you hear at any top university everywhere Which makes it OK? If university lecturers are speaking to new students trying to learn in this way, they shouldn't be teaching new students.
- bitL 8y ago
  I had gazillion encounters when senior engineers/managers were unbelievably condescending, especially when they saw a capable competitor in you. The keyword is resilience, are you going to gain this virtue, or are you going to complain everywhere and cry on all available shoulders, and then once you get what you wanted, start backstabbing anyone that helped you to keep them down and forget about what put you there? I was one of those "useful idiots" that was helping to my utmost capacity others, wasting time I could have spent working on bigger projects helping humanity. Every single case when those people got what they wanted stopped recognizing me and called me only when they needed something. I am no longer than person. If you really want something, work on it to the full extent of your own capabilities, get ready to be beaten from left and right and figure out how to move forward. Don't expect help from around you. When somebody shows generosity to you, treat it as a wonderful bonus you try to return somehow someday, not a requirement.
  - jsmeaton 8y ago
    > If you really want something, work on it to the full extent of your own capabilities, get ready to be beaten from left and right and figure out how to move forward. Don't expect help from around you. This should not be an expectation of the world, and I'm sorry you've had the experiences you've had to see it as such. This is exactly what people are complaining about when they say tech is hostile. It's not just hostile to minorities, it can be hostile to everybody. We can choose to do unto others, or we can choose to break that cycle and be more welcoming. If you're unable to do this on stackoverflow, then may I suggest you don't participate.
    - bitL 8y ago
      Frankly, resilience is necessity. The better you are, the more you are eclipsing the others, the stronger averse reaction you get everywhere. People could be your best friends until you escape their crab bucket, then you are suddenly a well-known enemy and rumors start spreading. I am no longer going out of my way to help those people; I believe they deserve where they are as they chose to stay in the bucket of their own loathing. But I am not going to be nasty to them at all. Their kids still have potential, so those are treated without indifference.

nanis 8y ago

> Can you please show the code referred to on line 49 and the surrounding code for context?” If you are paying me my hourly, I'll pretty please you to no end. Otherwise, I am not sure why I am expected to beg for people to give information that would help me help them.

jsmeaton 8y ago
Then move on and don't respond at all. Leave the begging to the users that want to help new users get better. There's a genuine complaint that responses to new users are often harsher than required. "I shouldn't have to beg for information" is not a valid response to that criticism. Answerers have no idea about the skill level of the people asking the questions. Their english might not be so good. This might be the first time someone is programming and they don't know which line in a stack trace is particularly important. They Need Help. If you're not willing to help users at that skill level, then don't. But it's totally unfair to criticise them.
- nanis 8y ago
  > Then move on and don't respond at all. You misunderstand. If you are paying me, I have no problem letting you spend more of your money by not giving enough information to solve the problem. I will point out once, and if you express the desire that I spend more time validating you, I will gladly do that. As it stands, you should keep in mind that you don't get to tell me what to do. Telling someone "we can't figure out what's wrong on line 49 if you don't show us what's on line 49" is not condescending, rude, discriminatory, racist, sexist, etc etc at all. It is a factual statement that is aimed at pointing out exactly what the person who is seeking help needs to do to get said help. Now, if I point something out like this, and I get a response like yours, I move on. Before moving on, however, I do vote to close the question because 1) there isn't enough information to diagnose the problem; and 2) the OP is unwilling to provide it. If you think I did something wrong in my response to you, you can flag my response for moderator attention. If that is not resolved to your liking, you can post on Meta. It is interesting to me that supposedly all these people who just want more niceness are the ones calling high-rep users and moderators assholes, insulting them indiscriminately etc. As I mentioned before, you can always go on Meta, and suggest ways to improve https://stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-ask https://stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-ask . If a first time user fails to follow the recommendations therein, it is incumbent upon the people who are trying to help to point it out so the mistake can be corrected. If people persist in not following advice, instead accusing people of all sorts of nasty things, they are unlikely to get the help they want. Keep in mind that some of these people may be writing the software for your bank or may end up next to you in that open floor plan office of yours. Helping them learn how to most effectively find answers to their questions may help you save time and aggravation later on.