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Here's something she complains about (she posted a screenshot of a comment): "If the error says line 49, it tells you exactly where the problem lies. If you pos

by nanis 9y ago

Here's something she complains about (she posted a screenshot of a comment): "If the error says line 49, it tells you exactly where the problem lies. If you post 7 lines of code here, we clearly cannot tell you what the problem is in line 49." [1] I see nothing wrong with that. As luck would have it, today some random stranger recognized me from my Stackoverflow profile at a Panera and asked me to help him debug his Django app. It was straightforward to fix because the error message described the problem exactly, but, for whatever reason, it wasn't apparent to him. I pointed this out, explained the problem, and showed him how to look for additional information based on the error message. Maybe this sounds softer in person, but there is nothing wrong with reminding people to pay attention to error messages, and the importance of giving people adequate amounts of information when you ask for their help. Now, as a person who's answered many a question on Stackoverflow, I've had people threatening physical harm to me and my loved ones, as well as setting up Twitter accounts to harass me. To their credit, Stackoverflow admins always take swift action when actual harassment occurs. However, Twitter and Facebook seemed rather uninterested. [1]: https://twitter.com/aprilwensel/status/974859164747931650 https://twitter.com/aprilwensel/status/974859164747931650

Karunamon 9y ago
This also struck me - as far as some of the treatment I've seen and read about on SO, this is downright courteous. She didn't provide enough information to actually answer the question, so literally what the fuck did she want?
- jsmeaton 9y ago
  > as far as some of the treatment I've seen and read about on SO, this is downright courteous > so literally what the fuck did she want Help? Perhaps it was their first time writing a program, and they can't interpret error messages. This is exactly the kind of elitist behaviour people are discussing - and if you're unable to see how the answer might keep people away, then you have no business trying to help new users.
  - Sacho 9y ago
    I think you're giving too much weight to the questioner's feelings, and none to the answerer's. Sure, the questioner might feel unwelcome when answers are curt and elitist. But also, the answerers might feel unwelcome when the questioners don't put in at least some effort in their question. Why do you privilege the questioners over the answerers? As a worst case scenario, how do you plan to supply unpaid volunteers who are willing to spend x10 the effort for each questioner? Many of the policies under fire here came out from people criticizing SO for having too many "spam" questions and not retaining experts' interest. Here's a discussion to the same effect: https://twitter.com/robconery/status/974678531832610816?lang=en https://twitter.com/robconery/status/974678531832610816?lang...
    - jsmeaton 9y ago
      The answerer can choose not to engage and move on. That's where the difference is. The answerer is choosing to use language that is unwelcoming. The questioner does not know they are doing anything wrong. I'm not suggesting the fix is to simply be nicer. There needs to be better incentives and tools to manage poor quality questions.
jsmeaton 9y ago
Here’s a slightly different response that is hopefully more welcoming. “The error message says the problem is on line 49 but you haven’t shown that line in your example code. Can you please show the code referred to on line 49 and the surrounding code for context?” I think power users on SO are frustrated by newer users not learning the rules and not helping themselves. But if you respond with kindness you’re teaching somebody (and that’s what answerers are there to do!) how to better contribute in future.
- bitL 9y ago
  Make a Deep Learning bot inserting whatever ornamentation of sentences you like. You can choose multiple styles and personalize for whatever makes you feel good. Why require one single standard from everyone? The answer that was "offensive" was just a standard dry answer like you hear at any top university everywhere; I found "(brutal) exercise is left to the reader" way more offensive.
  - jsmeaton 9y ago
    No one claimed the answer was offensive. It's unnecessarily condescending though. If you, as a senior developer, spoke to a junior developer on their first day at a new job in the same way, they'd be very unlikely to come to you for help in the future. Learning how to interpret error messages and extract the important information is a skill. What may seem obvious to you may not be obvious to someone with barely any experience. > was just a standard dry answer like you hear at any top university everywhere Which makes it OK? If university lecturers are speaking to new students trying to learn in this way, they shouldn't be teaching new students.
    - bitL 9y ago
      I had gazillion encounters when senior engineers/managers were unbelievably condescending, especially when they saw a capable competitor in you. The keyword is resilience, are you going to gain this virtue, or are you going to complain everywhere and cry on all available shoulders, and then once you get what you wanted, start backstabbing anyone that helped you to keep them down and forget about what put you there? I was one of those "useful idiots" that was helping to my utmost capacity others, wasting time I could have spent working on bigger projects helping humanity. Every single case when those people got what they wanted stopped recognizing me and called me only when they needed something. I am no longer than person. If you really want something, work on it to the full extent of your own capabilities, get ready to be beaten from left and right and figure out how to move forward. Don't expect help from around you. When somebody shows generosity to you, treat it as a wonderful bonus you try to return somehow someday, not a requirement.

by nanis 9y ago

Karunamon 9y ago

This also struck me - as far as some of the treatment I've seen and read about on SO, this is downright courteous. She didn't provide enough information to actually answer the question, so literally what the fuck did she want?

jsmeaton 9y ago
> as far as some of the treatment I've seen and read about on SO, this is downright courteous > so literally what the fuck did she want Help? Perhaps it was their first time writing a program, and they can't interpret error messages. This is exactly the kind of elitist behaviour people are discussing - and if you're unable to see how the answer might keep people away, then you have no business trying to help new users.
- Sacho 9y ago
  I think you're giving too much weight to the questioner's feelings, and none to the answerer's. Sure, the questioner might feel unwelcome when answers are curt and elitist. But also, the answerers might feel unwelcome when the questioners don't put in at least some effort in their question. Why do you privilege the questioners over the answerers? As a worst case scenario, how do you plan to supply unpaid volunteers who are willing to spend x10 the effort for each questioner? Many of the policies under fire here came out from people criticizing SO for having too many "spam" questions and not retaining experts' interest. Here's a discussion to the same effect: https://twitter.com/robconery/status/974678531832610816?lang=en https://twitter.com/robconery/status/974678531832610816?lang...
  - jsmeaton 9y ago
    The answerer can choose not to engage and move on. That's where the difference is. The answerer is choosing to use language that is unwelcoming. The questioner does not know they are doing anything wrong. I'm not suggesting the fix is to simply be nicer. There needs to be better incentives and tools to manage poor quality questions.

jsmeaton 9y ago

Here’s a slightly different response that is hopefully more welcoming. “The error message says the problem is on line 49 but you haven’t shown that line in your example code. Can you please show the code referred to on line 49 and the surrounding code for context?” I think power users on SO are frustrated by newer users not learning the rules and not helping themselves. But if you respond with kindness you’re teaching somebody (and that’s what answerers are there to do!) how to better contribute in future.

bitL 9y ago
Make a Deep Learning bot inserting whatever ornamentation of sentences you like. You can choose multiple styles and personalize for whatever makes you feel good. Why require one single standard from everyone? The answer that was "offensive" was just a standard dry answer like you hear at any top university everywhere; I found "(brutal) exercise is left to the reader" way more offensive.
- jsmeaton 9y ago
  No one claimed the answer was offensive. It's unnecessarily condescending though. If you, as a senior developer, spoke to a junior developer on their first day at a new job in the same way, they'd be very unlikely to come to you for help in the future. Learning how to interpret error messages and extract the important information is a skill. What may seem obvious to you may not be obvious to someone with barely any experience. > was just a standard dry answer like you hear at any top university everywhere Which makes it OK? If university lecturers are speaking to new students trying to learn in this way, they shouldn't be teaching new students.
  - bitL 9y ago
    I had gazillion encounters when senior engineers/managers were unbelievably condescending, especially when they saw a capable competitor in you. The keyword is resilience, are you going to gain this virtue, or are you going to complain everywhere and cry on all available shoulders, and then once you get what you wanted, start backstabbing anyone that helped you to keep them down and forget about what put you there? I was one of those "useful idiots" that was helping to my utmost capacity others, wasting time I could have spent working on bigger projects helping humanity. Every single case when those people got what they wanted stopped recognizing me and called me only when they needed something. I am no longer than person. If you really want something, work on it to the full extent of your own capabilities, get ready to be beaten from left and right and figure out how to move forward. Don't expect help from around you. When somebody shows generosity to you, treat it as a wonderful bonus you try to return somehow someday, not a requirement.