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> Second, trade jobs are usually pretty tough on the body. After a couple decades of work your body begins to break down, assuming there are no workplace injuri

> Second, trade jobs are usually pretty tough on the body. After a couple decades of work your body begins to break down, assuming there are no workplace injuries to put you out of commission sooner. the electrician i hire is in better shape than i'll ever be in, despite being about 50. pretty sure he makes about what i do, too. > Third, workplace conditions are on average undesirable. Outdoors in the heat/cold, or indoors in tight spaces or high places. ignoring high rises and installing solar panels, i feel like it isn't much worse than the stuff a lot of folks do on a regular basis to get exercise to make up for all the sitting they do all day, or just recreationally.

saint_fiasco 9y ago
That might be survivorship bias, plus in the end it's just anecdotes. What do life/health/disability insurance companies think? They might charge higher prices to people in more dangerous professions, and they have big incentives to get it right.
- PC_LOAD_LETTER 9y ago
  Great point. Markets are usually honest - if not necessarily always "right" - since that's where the rubber meets the road.
- GFischer 9y ago
  They do. I used to work on that, and while I don't have access to the list right now, I remember there were differences (not that big though).
retbull 9y ago
I've done roofing and it is really hard on your body regardless of the good condition it puts you in. Sure you can lift 200lbs of shingles up a ladder on your shoulders but your ankles ache 100% of the time and your knees start to click. I only did it for a couple of years at 18 and I regret it to this day. I didn't go and work on big projects it was mostly housing but it wasn't safe at all. Also it isn't anywhere similar to going out for a 30 min run in the park. If it is -10 and you have to get a job done because it is technically not raining or snowing you go out and do it for 8 hours. If it is 140 on the roof of a house and you have to walk up and down it with a pick ripping the roof off you do it for 8 hours. Those conditions happened all the time.
- gascan 9y ago
  I only did it for a couple of years at 18 and I regret it to this day. Curious, have you ever talked to a physical therapist? I've learned a lot of the maladies people live with are correctable, even sometimes things that seem permanent. Many running overuse injuries, for example, boil down to muscle weakness, muscle imbalance, or bad posture.
  - stevenkovar 9y ago
    Specifically, look into myofascial release therapy or muscle activation therapy. Without seeing a therapist, try doing this every day or every few days to elongate your 'posterior chain' and help your posture reset (which will help your knees, ankles, elbows operate under less duress): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOTvaRaDjI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOTvaRaDjI
    - nojvek 9y ago
      Have you noticed healthcare costs in US? Why would you blow all your salary? On something that is uncertain to work?
      - gascan 9y ago
        Physical therapists are not expensive, and most times prescribe a set of exercises to do at home. If your condition is really bad, you might go in for a visit once a month for six months. So you might be out $500, if you have a high deductible plan.
        mullen 9y ago
        I would also like to point out that if you are over 30, you got something that needs to be fixed that a Physical Therapist can fix. Don't go your whole life in pain or even annoyance.
- ams6110 9y ago
  Roofing (and drywall as well) are not really what I would call "trades." They are basically grunt work jobs that require a minimum of skill and training. Most of the guys I've met who do that work are either very young, illegal, or so screwed up on alcohol or drugs that they can't do much else.
ghaff 9y ago
The "trades" covers a lot of ground. Some of it is going to be hard on your body. But electrical is probably less bad in general. I also have a friend who is (or at least was) in the steelworker's union; she got into HVAC after Ringling Brothers clown college didn't land a permanent gig. She mostly does design work. Not everything is roofing, which as a peer wrote is probably fairly tough in general.
- woobar 9y ago
  Sounds like she's got an office job that is not much different from what programmers do. I once spent 3 minutes in the attic while HVAC guys were replacing my unit. They were hauling/removing through a tiny opening in the ceiling and installing heavy stuff for several hours. And July in the South is not a 'recreational' season.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    My point was that the trades don't automatically mean "hauling/removing through a tiny opening in the ceiling and installing heavy stuff for several hours" although they can. She does have to spend a fair bit of time onsite.
noobermin 9y ago
You're literally replying to a trend by stating your one exception. Back pain from sitting is nowhere near the level of debilitation one can get from having a workplace injury. Moreover, a workplace injury can threaten your very ability to do your work, while a hurting back won't ruin your ability to code or do paper shuffling.
bfuller 9y ago
its hard to ignore high rises when you start out. as a journeyman you have to carry all the tools up the stairs before the elevators are wired up, and thats when your knees go.
acjohnson55 9y ago
There's a distinction between physical conditioning and functional wellbeing. Look at any elite athlete whose joints and ligaments are betraying them.
murukesh_s 9y ago
> ignoring high rises and installing solar panels, i feel like it isn't much worse than the stuff a lot of folks do on a regular basis to get exercise to make up for all the sitting they do all day, or just recreationally. So true, also earning is relational, if you are in a group of high paid folks, you tend to feel you earn less, not matter how much you earn more than average income. On a relational note to the exercise portion, the max a high earning person often dream (and afford) about is spending a week in a beach 'hut' on a 'remote' island while there are several penniless people who just live on a beach hut for 365 days often without experiencing half the stress.

saint_fiasco 9y ago

That might be survivorship bias, plus in the end it's just anecdotes. What do life/health/disability insurance companies think? They might charge higher prices to people in more dangerous professions, and they have big incentives to get it right.

PC_LOAD_LETTER 9y ago
Great point. Markets are usually honest - if not necessarily always "right" - since that's where the rubber meets the road.
GFischer 9y ago
They do. I used to work on that, and while I don't have access to the list right now, I remember there were differences (not that big though).

retbull 9y ago

I've done roofing and it is really hard on your body regardless of the good condition it puts you in. Sure you can lift 200lbs of shingles up a ladder on your shoulders but your ankles ache 100% of the time and your knees start to click. I only did it for a couple of years at 18 and I regret it to this day. I didn't go and work on big projects it was mostly housing but it wasn't safe at all. Also it isn't anywhere similar to going out for a 30 min run in the park. If it is -10 and you have to get a job done because it is technically not raining or snowing you go out and do it for 8 hours. If it is 140 on the roof of a house and you have to walk up and down it with a pick ripping the roof off you do it for 8 hours. Those conditions happened all the time.

gascan 9y ago
I only did it for a couple of years at 18 and I regret it to this day. Curious, have you ever talked to a physical therapist? I've learned a lot of the maladies people live with are correctable, even sometimes things that seem permanent. Many running overuse injuries, for example, boil down to muscle weakness, muscle imbalance, or bad posture.
- stevenkovar 9y ago
  Specifically, look into myofascial release therapy or muscle activation therapy. Without seeing a therapist, try doing this every day or every few days to elongate your 'posterior chain' and help your posture reset (which will help your knees, ankles, elbows operate under less duress): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOTvaRaDjI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOTvaRaDjI
  - nojvek 9y ago
    Have you noticed healthcare costs in US? Why would you blow all your salary? On something that is uncertain to work?
    - gascan 9y ago
      Physical therapists are not expensive, and most times prescribe a set of exercises to do at home. If your condition is really bad, you might go in for a visit once a month for six months. So you might be out $500, if you have a high deductible plan.
      - mullen 9y ago
        I would also like to point out that if you are over 30, you got something that needs to be fixed that a Physical Therapist can fix. Don't go your whole life in pain or even annoyance.
ams6110 9y ago
Roofing (and drywall as well) are not really what I would call "trades." They are basically grunt work jobs that require a minimum of skill and training. Most of the guys I've met who do that work are either very young, illegal, or so screwed up on alcohol or drugs that they can't do much else.

ghaff 9y ago

The "trades" covers a lot of ground. Some of it is going to be hard on your body. But electrical is probably less bad in general. I also have a friend who is (or at least was) in the steelworker's union; she got into HVAC after Ringling Brothers clown college didn't land a permanent gig. She mostly does design work. Not everything is roofing, which as a peer wrote is probably fairly tough in general.

woobar 9y ago
Sounds like she's got an office job that is not much different from what programmers do. I once spent 3 minutes in the attic while HVAC guys were replacing my unit. They were hauling/removing through a tiny opening in the ceiling and installing heavy stuff for several hours. And July in the South is not a 'recreational' season.
- ghaff 9y ago
  My point was that the trades don't automatically mean "hauling/removing through a tiny opening in the ceiling and installing heavy stuff for several hours" although they can. She does have to spend a fair bit of time onsite.

noobermin 9y ago

You're literally replying to a trend by stating your one exception. Back pain from sitting is nowhere near the level of debilitation one can get from having a workplace injury. Moreover, a workplace injury can threaten your very ability to do your work, while a hurting back won't ruin your ability to code or do paper shuffling.

bfuller 9y ago

its hard to ignore high rises when you start out. as a journeyman you have to carry all the tools up the stairs before the elevators are wired up, and thats when your knees go.

acjohnson55 9y ago

There's a distinction between physical conditioning and functional wellbeing. Look at any elite athlete whose joints and ligaments are betraying them.

murukesh_s 9y ago

> ignoring high rises and installing solar panels, i feel like it isn't much worse than the stuff a lot of folks do on a regular basis to get exercise to make up for all the sitting they do all day, or just recreationally. So true, also earning is relational, if you are in a group of high paid folks, you tend to feel you earn less, not matter how much you earn more than average income. On a relational note to the exercise portion, the max a high earning person often dream (and afford) about is spending a week in a beach 'hut' on a 'remote' island while there are several penniless people who just live on a beach hut for 365 days often without experiencing half the stress.