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[Comment ignores hairsplitting over whether aviation is a profession or a trade. The point is there are many career options that do not require a college degree

• mediocrejoker 9y ago
  How well does being a pilot pay, eg. entry level and at the 2, 5 and 10 year marks?
  • zaphod12 9y ago
    Enormously depends. Captain at a major airline will earn you a nice 6 figure salary. Copilot at a regional airline is pretty much at the poverty line. Unfortunately that's where you need to start, often.
  • gbacon 9y ago
    Captains at majors can make upwards of $200k or $300k. First officer salaries at regional airlines have come up to start in the skilled trade range, $60k plus. Regional captains make $80k and up. (It used to be awful, $20-30k.) Getting to that point in the Part 121 world takes a lot of training and expense. Candidates for the Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) certificate must have a minimum of 1,500 flight hours. Other commercial flying such as hauling cargo, air taxi, or private charter may require a commercial single or commercial multi certificate with instrument rating. These pay about like the skilled trades too.
    • Naritai 9y ago
      I think you're glossing over the point,] that's been made by others in this thread, that while you're building up that 1500 hrs. of flying time you're getting paid not much more than minimum wage. i.e. the salary at 2 years is quite low.
      • Shivetya 9y ago
        since I am not in the know, how well does that compare to the internships many in the medical field must take on?
      • gbacon 9y ago
        For those who may not be familiar with FAA regulations, there are many routes to being a professional pilot other than being an airline transport pilot (ATP) flying Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) Part 121. As with all things FAR, it’s complicated, so a detailed treatment from the very first comment would quickly become boring and overwhelming. Reaching ATP minimum required 1,500 flight hours has multiple routes to it. Unfortunately for people who work their way up through the ratings as civilians, they are competing against retired military pilots who did not go into debt for their training and who are receiving pension payments. (Military aviators certainly paid for their training in a different way, and I am making no comparison of their respective costs.) Retired military pilots are frequently hired directly to major airlines whereas Billy and Susie Civilian start off at regional airlines. Even with ATP certificate in hand, it’s not yet fat city. Airline pilots have to work their way up through the seniority ranks, beginning with crummy ready reserve where they sit around hoping for a ride. Other flavors are short call and long call, the difference being how quickly the pilot must report for duty after receiving the call. Moving up to more desirable bases and aircraft goes through a complicated bid process[0]. [0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/8eaupt/moronic_monday/dxtzmal/ https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/8eaupt/moronic_mond... Yes, compensation relative to the training expense used to be horrible for first officers and even captains at regional airlines, starting in the $20k range annual compensation. Again recall that military retirees have their mailbox money coming in. Because of the pilot shortage, first officers at regionals now start around $60k annually. Two common civilian paths to ATP minimums are becoming a certificated flight instructor (CFI) or flying aerial survey, photography, air tours, private carriage, diver driver (i.e., flying skydivers) and so on. In reality, there may be some blend because all of the aforementioned tasks require a commercial pilot certificate. Because the airlines are a training environment, there is at least some degree of preference for CFIs rather than someone who schlepped around for a thousand hours towing a banner over the beach in a 152. These are not minimum-wage jobs. Someone with a wet commercial ticket might make twenty bucks an hour. Here again, the would-be ATP is competing against fellow time builders trying to get to 1,500 hours. More advanced instructors (e.g., CFI-Instrument, commercial instruction, or complex instruction) command a higher hourly rate, and instructors get paid for both flight time and for ground instruction. It’s not great money, but they aren’t starving either: starting in the $30k range up to the $50s — a lot like apprentices in the skilled trades. Candidates for the commercial pilot checkride must have at least 250 flight hours. The commercial airplane ticket comes in four flavors along two axes: single- or multi-engine and land or sea. The least expensive is airplane single-engine land (ASEL). To reach that point, trainers in this class rent between $100 and $200 per flight hour “wet,” inclusive of fuel. Include instruction, test fees, gear, and the cost of an instrument rating (which I am glossing over) will total to around $30k. Some flight schools and operators of multi-engine aircraft will foot the bill for the multi rating and MEI in exchange for some number of flight hours on the back end with a clawback if the pilot leaves for another opportunity.
  • gbacon 9y ago
    Air traffic control specialists make a lot of money and quickly. This line of work does not require a college degree, and once someone certifies, she’s making six figures in less than seven years — maybe sooner.
    • ssully 9y ago
      I think you keep overlooking the path taken to get to the point of making those six figures. I would love if someone in the industry could shed some light here. I have two friends early in an ATC career and it sounded like getting to where they are now was hell (and they definitely aren't at the 6 figure mark yet). The most reductive way I've had it explained is it's years of training, with shit pay and relocation, and the possibility of washing out along the way being relatively high.
      • gbacon 9y ago
        Yes, ATC specialists who are living the good life are definitely survivors. It is a specialized aptitude that not everyone has controlled by a federal bureaucracy and a union. People wait for months and years for OTS (off the street) bids, take a battery of tests, receive a TOL (tentative offer letter), and wait months for a slot at the ATC academy at Oklahoma City. Assuming our hero passes the academy, she is then assigned to an Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC or just Center), an air traffic control tower (ATCT), or an “up-down” facility with both a control tower and TRACON, terminal radar approach control. Certifying in just one sector may take a year or two. Trainees make upwards of $30k annually. Someone who washes out may look at transferring to a less demanding facility. People also request hardship transfers to be closer to family and so on, but ATC is chronically understaffed, and obtaining those transfers takes time. As with pilots (see another reply in this thread[0]), military ATC experience is often a more expedient route. FAA controllers tend to discount the skill and decision making of former Army controllers who mostly deal with low-flying slow movers under VFR rather than jets under positive control. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16941169 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16941169 Oh by the way, our hero must get in (I believe be admitted to the academy) before her 31st birthday. The clock is ticking. Yes, there is survivorship bias in the success stories. People wash out of other careers too. Seeing actual data on rates would be fascinating. For balance, read the “Why do drug dealers still live with their moms?” chapter of Freakonomics.
  • cameldrv 9y ago
    It's pretty bad. Yes, once you get the brass ring of 777 captain at a major airline, it's $300k. You need 1500 hours even to be in the right seat at a regional airline now though. Since everyone needs those hours, it's hard to get them without paying for them. You can instruct, but there are only so many students, so you spend a lot of time sitting around or doing unpaid work for the flight school. People tend to get creative like going overseas, working for almost nothing for marginal cargo operators, etc. Ultimately, you're probably going to pay about $70 per hour of flight time, whether it's cash or opportunity cost. Ultimately, IMO the best way to hit the magic number is to buy a very fuel efficient trainer and spend a year or two flying around a whole lot. The number of years it takes to go from regional FO to major Captain is extremely dependent on the economy. Since everything is based on seniority, if there is a downturn, airlines fly less flights and need less pilots, so basically your career goes on hold because no one is getting promoted. When things are good, you move quickly up the ranks. To your direct question, once you have all of your ratings and your 1500 hours, plus a 4 year college degree (required at major airlines) (figure 6 years and $200-250k in debt), at 2 years you are probably FO at a regional, $50k/yr. At 5 years, captain at a regional, 80k/yr, 10 years, FO at a major, $150k/yr. If the economy tanks, you stall and might be laid off or furloughed. If your airline goes bankrupt, you scramble to find another job and start at the bottom of the FO totem pole again. If you have almost any health problem or require most any medication, you lose your medical and find another line of work. If further automation leads to a single pilot cockpit (fairly likely IMO in the next 20 years), you either lose your job or take a big pay cut.
    • mediocrejoker 8y ago
      Thanks for the detailed reply.
• nwatson 9y ago
  My younger older brother wanted to be an opera singer and majored in vocal performance, doing a variety of jobs like landscaping, manual labor, selling insurance, directing church choirs (doesn't pay well at all but was tied with his sense of mission), etc. I think he was a great singer, perhaps even professional opera quality -- but in that world you need to be the top 2% of the top 2%, maybe, to make a living at it, and to be in the right place at the right time. So with a wife and two kids and in his late 20's, he decided one day he was going to be a pilot. Already in precarious financial circumstances, he took out some huge loans to go to flight school. We all were concerned it might not turn out so well. He worked up to a pilot license, twin-engine license, flight instructor license, commercial license. He got a series of cargo jobs ... and >> they pay extremely low wages and require lots of odd hours and time waiting around away from home. << It wasn't easy, pay was low, for many many years. These outfits all make money by squeezing employee pay and by skimping on maintenance -- and he had a couple of emergency landings in the Arizona desert amongst the cacti and boulders. He eventually got some jobs flying real people around for >> minor airlines <<, and bounced between those and other cargo jobs. Pay was still low. He also spent a stint in the Central African Republic helping a real nice Sudanese gentleman start an airline. There are lots of mining companies that need to fly around equipment and engineers even in a poverty-striken country, and lots of rich Portuguese folks wanting a real African dense-jungle hunting experience. The biggest risks for a while were precarious landing strips and corrupt government officials (they managed to pay zero bribes by just saying "no" to solicitations, holding out, and working their way up the hierarchy). A revolution came along to destroy the airline dream, and he was lucky the French military managed to pick him and other expats up from his neighborhood before the worst came along. In his last "podunk" air cargo job, the airplane he was operating malfunctioned due to poor maintenance. The company wanted to pin the damage on him and his lack of procedure (he's very conscientious) and tried their best to break him on an unreasonable simulator test -- he managed to come out of that unscathed. Fortunately he'd just interviewed with America West and got the word the next day he was hired to fly 757's. So it took my brother about 15 years to work from his first commercial job to becoming a full-fledged airline pilot in the majors ... and he had to work many marginal jobs for low pay in the interim. It's worked out well for him. He's flown 757's for various years on many routes, but most commonly now does Phoenix <--> Hawaii. There have been more challenges stemming from America West's acquisition pseudo-mergers with first the bankrupt US Airways, then the bankrupt American Airlines ... labor and seniority issues in the airlines are never easy, especially during mergers. He's had time to get a Comp-Sci degree in the mean time while working "reserve" and started a decent-sized Salesforce consultancy and recruited some other family to work in that. (That consultancy kind of blew up ... working with family is hard, but that's a different story.) He flies and does Salesforce consulting now and is reasonably happy.
• dvtrn 9y ago
  There are lots of options for aviation careers such as dispatcher A bit of first hand here, I'm currently pivoting over to this-there is absolutely demand for flight dispatchers right now. There's two kickers though I learned along this course that was not immediately apparent: 1) While you can take the first phase of your ADX training online, virtually every school that offers this program requires a portion of in-class instruction, which for some is a deal breaker...mostly due to 2) The number of available schools is not that great; the majority are on either coast, with only a dotting of schools to choose from in the interior US. 3) It's not the cheapest professional license one could obtain, but there are others that are far more expensive (welding for example, excluding training and licensing and simply purchasing durable and quality work gear can be a heft cost) Still, that said...I have a friend who also decided to go out and become an ADX. She took the FAA exam, passed and was employed in under a month (this required relocation on her part).