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I understand the sentiment but I would also like to offer my own anecdotal "youngin' webdev" experience: I have worked with a ton of great people who program t

I understand the sentiment but I would also like to offer my own anecdotal "youngin' webdev" experience: I have worked with a ton of great people who program that are over 40, and having experience isn't just what you are familiar with as far as tech stacks. Employers are just looking for a value add when hiring - and I believe that devs in their 40s bring that value just the same as devs in their 20s.

bradenb 8y ago
Isn’t this exactly the argument for preparing a plan B? If employers believe they can get the same value add for devs in their 20s at a fraction of the cost then why hire the 40-somethings? My personal feeling is that ageism in software development shouldn’t be a thing, but it’s a reality I’ve witnessed myself, so I can’t ignore it.
jmathai 8y ago
Problem is that a 40yo dev needs 2x the pay of a 20yo but doesn't bring 2x the value. Unless you're highly specialized then you run out of options as you become an older programmer. The market size of "specialized programmers" is not even close enough to being the size needed to absorb programmers as they age. I see things a lot differently now that I did 10 or 15 years ago. I no longer believe that a decade of experience in programming carries much value (as seen by an employer). The aha moment for me was when I worked with a 26 yo trombone major who took a 3 month coding bootcamp who was showing nearly the same level of programming proficiency as me. And I wasn't a schmuck programmer.
- digikata 8y ago
  If that was the case I think you might consider keeping a career eye on expanding what your concentration is on as a programmer. I have seen newer programmers doing a terrible to very good job on implementation that is coloring within the lines, but the best could still easily get into the weeds on larger architectural tradeoffs, and communicating them to a team. That kind of experience easily brings in more than 2x the value in avoided costs - but that's the rub, avoided costs are hard for a lot of companies to know how to value. Edit: If companies want to get positive value from experience, they have to also structure their engineering teams in a way that it puts some technical people in charge at med to high levels - but again many programmers jump to management tracks because that structure often doesn't exist at parity in companies. The roles exist, they just might be called "programmers" at that point..
- mpfundstein 8y ago
  If the last paragraph is true I am seriously curious now what code you write.
  - jmathai 8y ago
    https://github.com/jmathai https://github.com/jmathai (personal) https://github.com/photo https://github.com/photo (founded)
- kolpa 8y ago
  > Problem is that a 40yo dev needs 2x the pay of a 20yo but doesn't bring 2x the value. That's just not true. A 40yo could be paid more or less than a 20yo, and could bring 0.1x to 10x the value.
  - jmathai 8y ago
    You're right. My guess is that on average a 40yo needs 2x the pay and brings 1.5x the value. So it's maybe not so drastic and there are benefits of hiring older developers (stay around longer, more reliable, etc).
- troels 8y ago
  > Problem is that a 40yo dev needs 2x the pay of a 20yo but doesn't bring 2x the value. I beg to differ. They may have the technical skills to match, but they won't have the other skills that makes you truly able to deliver value. It depends on the type of work of course. If code correlates directly with business value, then you may be right, but that is just rarely the case.
  - jmathai 8y ago
    Sure, a team full of 25 year olds probably isn't the best idea. But a 40 year old lead with 10 devs who are 25 year olds is reasonable. The latter does not dispute the OP.
- sic1 8y ago
  > The aha moment for me was when I worked with a 26 yo trombone major who took a 3 month coding bootcamp who was showing nearly the same level of programming proficiency as me. And I wasn't a schmuck programmer. Programming proficiency and programming/development/software knowledge are two different things. He may have _proficiency_, but does he have real world experience of working in a dev team? Handling nasty bugs? Working on legacy code bases? And so on.. People may be able to get up to speed quickly with all the resources at their fingertips these days (which is great), but if you only had a team of those people... Well, I wouldn't bet a business on it. Full disclosure, we just hired a 40+ dev and could not be happier with the experience he brings to the team. Yes, we could have saved $20K+ and got someone younger in their career, but he's already shown his value in getting up to speed quickly and tackling large tasks/issues right away. There will always be shops on both sides of the hiring fence (I've seen both), I call them farm teams vs the big leagues.
  - jmathai 8y ago
    I'm really not trying to be dismissive here...but I think you're pointing out exceptions and not the rule. The vast majority of software jobs don't need 20 years of experience. 5-10 years is plenty. > Programming proficiency and programming/development/software knowledge are two different things. He may have _proficiency_, but does he have real world experience of working in a dev team? Handling nasty bugs? Working on legacy code bases? And so on.. He had everything needed to do the job. > I call them farm teams vs the big leagues. This was at a startup in SF acquired by a giant software firm.
commandlinefan 8y ago
> I believe that devs in their 40s bring that value just the same Well, part of his premise is that we may, but we cost a lot more. I know I cost a lot more than I did when I was 24, even after adjusting for inflation. I do worry about pricing myself out of the job market - but I also worry about missing out on potential salary now while I'm still young _enough_ to be employable.
- kolpa 8y ago
  > I do worry about pricing myself out of the job market How is that possible? Either because you have enough money to retire, and you don't want to work, or you would rather work for 0 even though you want money ?

bradenb 8y ago

Isn’t this exactly the argument for preparing a plan B? If employers believe they can get the same value add for devs in their 20s at a fraction of the cost then why hire the 40-somethings? My personal feeling is that ageism in software development shouldn’t be a thing, but it’s a reality I’ve witnessed myself, so I can’t ignore it.

jmathai 8y ago

Problem is that a 40yo dev needs 2x the pay of a 20yo but doesn't bring 2x the value. Unless you're highly specialized then you run out of options as you become an older programmer. The market size of "specialized programmers" is not even close enough to being the size needed to absorb programmers as they age. I see things a lot differently now that I did 10 or 15 years ago. I no longer believe that a decade of experience in programming carries much value (as seen by an employer). The aha moment for me was when I worked with a 26 yo trombone major who took a 3 month coding bootcamp who was showing nearly the same level of programming proficiency as me. And I wasn't a schmuck programmer.

digikata 8y ago
If that was the case I think you might consider keeping a career eye on expanding what your concentration is on as a programmer. I have seen newer programmers doing a terrible to very good job on implementation that is coloring within the lines, but the best could still easily get into the weeds on larger architectural tradeoffs, and communicating them to a team. That kind of experience easily brings in more than 2x the value in avoided costs - but that's the rub, avoided costs are hard for a lot of companies to know how to value. Edit: If companies want to get positive value from experience, they have to also structure their engineering teams in a way that it puts some technical people in charge at med to high levels - but again many programmers jump to management tracks because that structure often doesn't exist at parity in companies. The roles exist, they just might be called "programmers" at that point..
mpfundstein 8y ago
If the last paragraph is true I am seriously curious now what code you write.
- jmathai 8y ago
  https://github.com/jmathai https://github.com/jmathai (personal) https://github.com/photo https://github.com/photo (founded)
kolpa 8y ago
> Problem is that a 40yo dev needs 2x the pay of a 20yo but doesn't bring 2x the value. That's just not true. A 40yo could be paid more or less than a 20yo, and could bring 0.1x to 10x the value.
- jmathai 8y ago
  You're right. My guess is that on average a 40yo needs 2x the pay and brings 1.5x the value. So it's maybe not so drastic and there are benefits of hiring older developers (stay around longer, more reliable, etc).
troels 8y ago
> Problem is that a 40yo dev needs 2x the pay of a 20yo but doesn't bring 2x the value. I beg to differ. They may have the technical skills to match, but they won't have the other skills that makes you truly able to deliver value. It depends on the type of work of course. If code correlates directly with business value, then you may be right, but that is just rarely the case.
- jmathai 8y ago
  Sure, a team full of 25 year olds probably isn't the best idea. But a 40 year old lead with 10 devs who are 25 year olds is reasonable. The latter does not dispute the OP.
sic1 8y ago
> The aha moment for me was when I worked with a 26 yo trombone major who took a 3 month coding bootcamp who was showing nearly the same level of programming proficiency as me. And I wasn't a schmuck programmer. Programming proficiency and programming/development/software knowledge are two different things. He may have _proficiency_, but does he have real world experience of working in a dev team? Handling nasty bugs? Working on legacy code bases? And so on.. People may be able to get up to speed quickly with all the resources at their fingertips these days (which is great), but if you only had a team of those people... Well, I wouldn't bet a business on it. Full disclosure, we just hired a 40+ dev and could not be happier with the experience he brings to the team. Yes, we could have saved $20K+ and got someone younger in their career, but he's already shown his value in getting up to speed quickly and tackling large tasks/issues right away. There will always be shops on both sides of the hiring fence (I've seen both), I call them farm teams vs the big leagues.
- jmathai 8y ago
  I'm really not trying to be dismissive here...but I think you're pointing out exceptions and not the rule. The vast majority of software jobs don't need 20 years of experience. 5-10 years is plenty. > Programming proficiency and programming/development/software knowledge are two different things. He may have _proficiency_, but does he have real world experience of working in a dev team? Handling nasty bugs? Working on legacy code bases? And so on.. He had everything needed to do the job. > I call them farm teams vs the big leagues. This was at a startup in SF acquired by a giant software firm.

commandlinefan 8y ago

> I believe that devs in their 40s bring that value just the same Well, part of his premise is that we may, but we cost a lot more. I know I cost a lot more than I did when I was 24, even after adjusting for inflation. I do worry about pricing myself out of the job market - but I also worry about missing out on potential salary now while I'm still young _enough_ to be employable.

kolpa 8y ago
> I do worry about pricing myself out of the job market How is that possible? Either because you have enough money to retire, and you don't want to work, or you would rather work for 0 even though you want money ?