6 ms·

Apple and Google will coerce you into installing updates that irreversibly remove functionality, so think describing the fuses as being "blown" is the best word

Apple and Google will coerce you into installing updates that irreversibly remove functionality, so think describing the fuses as being "blown" is the best word to use, since it implies damage being done to your device. I can at least understand game console developers doing this. But it has become standard practice now. I forgot my new pin on my iPad, and Apple forced me to take an update that I didn't want in order to restore it, which broke several features that I liked[1]. After iOS8, there is no way to decline updates, they will just keep getting downloaded. My mother and grandmother both had their iPads hobbled by destructive updates as well. My Mom was going to give her old iPad 4 to one of her students so they could use this learning app, but Apple updated her iPad while she was sleeping one night, and iOS10 is so slow it is barely usable. Can we please stop excusing this behavior by using neutral language? Companies clearly know that these updates are unwanted, or else they would let your roll them back. Retroactively removing features and damaging devices that people have paid for should be illegal. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11986500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11986500

koala_man 8y ago
>Google will coerce you into installing updates that irreversibly remove functionality Do you have an example? On Android you're generally free to downgrade at any time, as long as the user data partition is cleared in the process.
- khedoros1 8y ago
  One that comes to mind for me, with a specific Google app: Google removed SMS from newer versions of their Hangouts app over a year ago. I kept the program at the last version to have SMS. Pop-ups appeared periodically asking me to update the app. After about a year, launching the app starting showing a page "This version of Hangouts is no longer supported. To continue, please update the app." Of course, at that point, I moved to one of their currently-supported apps...but it means that my Hangouts conversations are in a different place than my SMS conversations.
nkristoffersen 8y ago
Perhaps you don't work in software, but you definitely want constant updates for an internet connected device. Apple has a track record for providing software updates for a long time past initial device release. Do you think more manufactures should be following their lead? The "cyber" world would be a much more secure place with constant updates.
- pritambaral 8y ago
  Perhaps you don't work with non-user-hostile software, but you definitely want constant security updates for an internet connected device. No reason for constant feature updates to keep the cyber world secure. It's a shame some software vendors bundle them together inseparably.
  - Operyl 8y ago
    On the other hand, you’re implying that they should maintain patches for every single version of iOS released? Because every minor includes new features. That’s asinine.
    - pritambaral 8y ago
      Ubuntu, a free, open source OS, maintains and backports security patches for n-2, n-1, and n LTS releases. LineageOS, a free, volunteer-run open source mobile OS, maintains and backports security patches for n-2, n-1, and n Android versions for phones. Red Hat, the maker of RHEL, a paid, open-source OS — and its free, open-source duplicate CentOS — maintains and backports security patches for 10 years. Microsoft Windows 10, a paid, closed-source OS pushed aggressively by Microsoft to the point of being sued, bundles feature and security updates on users like every real-world installation is for beta-testing. The LTSB branch is not available/accessible to individual users, and it looks like that will also start bundling feature updates with security updates. Apple's iOS, a paid, closed-source, locked-to-hardware OS that supports devices sold in the past three years bundles feature and security updates and aggressively pushes updates on people's devices. There is no LTS branch of iOS.
djrogers 8y ago
> Apple updated her iPad while she was sleeping one night iOS devices do not update on their own without any user intervention. In order to schedule an overnight upgrade, you have to agree to it then enter your PIN... > Companies clearly know that these updates are unwanted, or else they would let your roll them back. That statement makes no logical sense at all. The reaason they prevent downgrades are to reduce support costs, to ensure broad compatibility, and because of security flaws in older versions.
- ythn 8y ago
  > The reason they prevent downgrades are to reduce support costs, to ensure broad compatibility, and because of security flaws in older versions That's a reason, not the reason. I'm sure you can think of many other reasons a company would want to prevent downgrades that they won't tell you because it's "user hostile". For example, say an exploit is found in the Nintendo Switch that allows arbitrary code execution. People use that to load emulators, homebrew games, pirated games, you name it into their Switch console. Nintendo does not like this, so they force an upgrade on everyone, lock it from being downgraded, and now anyone who upgraded can no longer do that. They'll chalk it up to security of course, because what company will flat out say they don't want their users to have the ability to run unsigned code on "their" device?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - tschwimmer 8y ago
    For the specific example of Nintendo, the codephrase for their exploit-closing patches is 'Increasing Overall System Stability'[0] which has spawned a beloved meme. [0] http://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/231/~/system-menu-update-history http://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a...
- ksk 8y ago
  Apple will continuously nag you if you don't update. They use dark patterns (like many others) to trick you into accepting the update . Not to mention that updates also slow down your device over time, as happened with every single iphone 4s user. It was fast when I purchased it, and the updates turned it into a bottom of the barrel $99 android phone. While you might be correct that updates also bring in fixes and new features, major updates can radically change the UI, and you're stuck with it even if you don't like it. Not being able to reset a consumer device to its factory state is a backwards mentality that users should protest at every opportunity.
valine 8y ago
Currently the best way to decline updates is to install the Apple TV beta profile to your iPhone or iPad. It prevents the updates from being downloaded in the background and stops the "enter passcode to update" notifications. http://www.idownloadblog.com/2017/12/11/block-ios-updates/ http://www.idownloadblog.com/2017/12/11/block-ios-updates/
- apostacy 8y ago
  Whoa, thank you for posting that! I had given up trying to solve that problem. I thought the only way to prevent it without jailbreaking it was to use an enterprise account to make a new provisioning profile. Also, when my iPad ran out of space, it finally stopped downloading updates. Of course, it would be excellent if I could just say no without having to jump through so many hoops and spend my time on it. This kind of administrative stuff is so exhausting, and I never remember it being this complicated.
danShumway 8y ago
I was a (reasonably) happy customer on Windows 8.1 until the screen on my Surface Pro broke. Sent it to Microsoft, paid $300 for repair, came back with Windows 10. At the time I was furious, I'm still a little bitter about it. This is like when ad agencies say, "well, actually users like it when we inform them about new products, and it's actually a very valuable service..." No, otherwise people wouldn't be going out of their way to install adblockers. Getting users to update software is hard because they view the process as cumbersome, annoying, and dangerous. A good rule of thumb is that if you have to resort to dark patterns to do something, you're probably doing not doing it because people want you to.
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  I'm sorry for your loss! :-) Now that you're on 10, though, I suggest at least taking advantage of the new features to make yourself a little happier. One of the most underrated (yet killer) features is the transparent LZX file system compression. It's awesome. Use it on read-only stuff like huge .exe and .lib files; it'll lower your space usage dramatically. (You can read these files with Windows 8.1 too, but you'll need to manually find, install, and attach the WoF driver to make that happen.)
  - danShumway 8y ago
    I know you mean well, and I don't mean to put you down, and I'm sure the technology behind this is impressive and is making some people's lives way better, but this is exactly what I was getting at above. LZX file system compression is objectively not a killer feature. If it was a killer feature, Windows wouldn't have had to run an aggressive campaign to trick users into upgrading - they would have upgraded themselves so they could get the amazing new feature that they cared about. It's certainly good that Windows supports it, and it's definitely an improvement. But improvement isn't a one-dimensional scale - it's possible to build a product that's technically better in some ways that's still overall a worse value proposition for a large portion of its users. It's like if I poured coffee on your jacket and then said, "well, let me make it up to you by shining your shoes." That's very kind, but the gesture is unrelated to the problem.

koala_man 8y ago

>Google will coerce you into installing updates that irreversibly remove functionality Do you have an example? On Android you're generally free to downgrade at any time, as long as the user data partition is cleared in the process.

khedoros1 8y ago
One that comes to mind for me, with a specific Google app: Google removed SMS from newer versions of their Hangouts app over a year ago. I kept the program at the last version to have SMS. Pop-ups appeared periodically asking me to update the app. After about a year, launching the app starting showing a page "This version of Hangouts is no longer supported. To continue, please update the app." Of course, at that point, I moved to one of their currently-supported apps...but it means that my Hangouts conversations are in a different place than my SMS conversations.

nkristoffersen 8y ago

Perhaps you don't work in software, but you definitely want constant updates for an internet connected device. Apple has a track record for providing software updates for a long time past initial device release. Do you think more manufactures should be following their lead? The "cyber" world would be a much more secure place with constant updates.

pritambaral 8y ago
Perhaps you don't work with non-user-hostile software, but you definitely want constant security updates for an internet connected device. No reason for constant feature updates to keep the cyber world secure. It's a shame some software vendors bundle them together inseparably.
- Operyl 8y ago
  On the other hand, you’re implying that they should maintain patches for every single version of iOS released? Because every minor includes new features. That’s asinine.
  - pritambaral 8y ago
    Ubuntu, a free, open source OS, maintains and backports security patches for n-2, n-1, and n LTS releases. LineageOS, a free, volunteer-run open source mobile OS, maintains and backports security patches for n-2, n-1, and n Android versions for phones. Red Hat, the maker of RHEL, a paid, open-source OS — and its free, open-source duplicate CentOS — maintains and backports security patches for 10 years. Microsoft Windows 10, a paid, closed-source OS pushed aggressively by Microsoft to the point of being sued, bundles feature and security updates on users like every real-world installation is for beta-testing. The LTSB branch is not available/accessible to individual users, and it looks like that will also start bundling feature updates with security updates. Apple's iOS, a paid, closed-source, locked-to-hardware OS that supports devices sold in the past three years bundles feature and security updates and aggressively pushes updates on people's devices. There is no LTS branch of iOS.

djrogers 8y ago

> Apple updated her iPad while she was sleeping one night iOS devices do not update on their own without any user intervention. In order to schedule an overnight upgrade, you have to agree to it then enter your PIN... > Companies clearly know that these updates are unwanted, or else they would let your roll them back. That statement makes no logical sense at all. The reaason they prevent downgrades are to reduce support costs, to ensure broad compatibility, and because of security flaws in older versions.

ythn 8y ago
> The reason they prevent downgrades are to reduce support costs, to ensure broad compatibility, and because of security flaws in older versions That's a reason, not the reason. I'm sure you can think of many other reasons a company would want to prevent downgrades that they won't tell you because it's "user hostile". For example, say an exploit is found in the Nintendo Switch that allows arbitrary code execution. People use that to load emulators, homebrew games, pirated games, you name it into their Switch console. Nintendo does not like this, so they force an upgrade on everyone, lock it from being downgraded, and now anyone who upgraded can no longer do that. They'll chalk it up to security of course, because what company will flat out say they don't want their users to have the ability to run unsigned code on "their" device?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- tschwimmer 8y ago
  For the specific example of Nintendo, the codephrase for their exploit-closing patches is 'Increasing Overall System Stability'[0] which has spawned a beloved meme. [0] http://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/231/~/system-menu-update-history http://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a...
ksk 8y ago
Apple will continuously nag you if you don't update. They use dark patterns (like many others) to trick you into accepting the update . Not to mention that updates also slow down your device over time, as happened with every single iphone 4s user. It was fast when I purchased it, and the updates turned it into a bottom of the barrel $99 android phone. While you might be correct that updates also bring in fixes and new features, major updates can radically change the UI, and you're stuck with it even if you don't like it. Not being able to reset a consumer device to its factory state is a backwards mentality that users should protest at every opportunity.

valine 8y ago

Currently the best way to decline updates is to install the Apple TV beta profile to your iPhone or iPad. It prevents the updates from being downloaded in the background and stops the "enter passcode to update" notifications. http://www.idownloadblog.com/2017/12/11/block-ios-updates/ http://www.idownloadblog.com/2017/12/11/block-ios-updates/

apostacy 8y ago
Whoa, thank you for posting that! I had given up trying to solve that problem. I thought the only way to prevent it without jailbreaking it was to use an enterprise account to make a new provisioning profile. Also, when my iPad ran out of space, it finally stopped downloading updates. Of course, it would be excellent if I could just say no without having to jump through so many hoops and spend my time on it. This kind of administrative stuff is so exhausting, and I never remember it being this complicated.

danShumway 8y ago

I was a (reasonably) happy customer on Windows 8.1 until the screen on my Surface Pro broke. Sent it to Microsoft, paid $300 for repair, came back with Windows 10. At the time I was furious, I'm still a little bitter about it. This is like when ad agencies say, "well, actually users like it when we inform them about new products, and it's actually a very valuable service..." No, otherwise people wouldn't be going out of their way to install adblockers. Getting users to update software is hard because they view the process as cumbersome, annoying, and dangerous. A good rule of thumb is that if you have to resort to dark patterns to do something, you're probably doing not doing it because people want you to.

mehrdadn 8y ago
I'm sorry for your loss! :-) Now that you're on 10, though, I suggest at least taking advantage of the new features to make yourself a little happier. One of the most underrated (yet killer) features is the transparent LZX file system compression. It's awesome. Use it on read-only stuff like huge .exe and .lib files; it'll lower your space usage dramatically. (You can read these files with Windows 8.1 too, but you'll need to manually find, install, and attach the WoF driver to make that happen.)
- danShumway 8y ago
  I know you mean well, and I don't mean to put you down, and I'm sure the technology behind this is impressive and is making some people's lives way better, but this is exactly what I was getting at above. LZX file system compression is objectively not a killer feature. If it was a killer feature, Windows wouldn't have had to run an aggressive campaign to trick users into upgrading - they would have upgraded themselves so they could get the amazing new feature that they cared about. It's certainly good that Windows supports it, and it's definitely an improvement. But improvement isn't a one-dimensional scale - it's possible to build a product that's technically better in some ways that's still overall a worse value proposition for a large portion of its users. It's like if I poured coffee on your jacket and then said, "well, let me make it up to you by shining your shoes." That's very kind, but the gesture is unrelated to the problem.