5 ms·

It bothered me back then, and I wasn't alone. Here's an article from 1999 in the NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/24/nyregion/suit-claims-pokemon-is-lotter

by JackCh 8y ago

It bothered me back then, and I wasn't alone. Here's an article from 1999 in the NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/24/nyregion/suit-claims-pokemon-is-lottery-not-just-fad.html https://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/24/nyregion/suit-claims-poke... Obviously the objections to pokemon cards never reached any sort of critical mass as objections to loot boxes seem to be. Maybe that says something about differences between the two industries, or maybe that says something about how society has progressed in the past two decades.

niij 8y ago
> says something about how society has progressed in the past two decades Or regressed, depending on your views about personal liberty and what the obligations of the state are.
- JackCh 8y ago
  Was it also a regression when governments around the world banned children from gambling in casinos?
  - celticninja 8y ago
    And working in coal mines.
    - niij 8y ago
      Spending money on virtual games is miles away from child labor. I don't think you'll find very many people in here arguing that anti-child labor laws are a bad thing, so I find your comment a bit of a red-herring.
  - niij 8y ago
    I guess it depends on where you draw the line on when liberty should be taken away from children (or their guardians) to make choices on what they are/are not allowed to do. Personally, I believe casinos pose a risk of not only spending money, but also exposure to much more harmful activities (drugs, prostitution, violence). These other risks have to factor into the equation, and for playing a game on a computer/phone, those risks just aren't there like they are in a casino. That's why I have a separate opinion on loot crates vs casinos. I guess what I am getting at is that loot crates can only be a waste of money, but kids already spend their money on other "wasteful" activities like purchasing video games, so why should there be any difference just because the mechanics of the game are different?
    - Barrin92 8y ago
      >difference just because the mechanics of the game are different? yes, because the mechanism of gambling is addictive. (this too applies to subsets of video games as well, but at least most of them don't allow open-ended money spending) Obviously it depends on everybody's definition of liberty, but most people seem to be happy to, as a society, put limits on the consumption of goods that foster unhealthy, addictive behaviour in individuals and cause financial or personal damage. I for example don't have a problem with video games that foster creativity, problem solving and leave children with genuinely satisfying experiences. I am concerned about social media and games that only implement stick and carrot mechanisms to maximize the time children spend in front of them.
      - niij 8y ago
        I agree with you that video games can be unhealthy. But why should these crates be legislated, just because their outcome is random? Does it really present any more harm than video games and in-game purchases in general? I spent a good amount of money on pay-to-win games when I was younger (buying weapon upgrades, more materials, gold, etc), the only difference was that the exact item was listed-- no surprises. Why should anyone besides my guardian decide whether or not that counts as "unhealthy, addictive behavior"? I could have bought a nearly endless supply of these in-game items that really served no purpose just as much as people do with loot crates. Should we in-game purchases for those in-game items too, under the premise that purchasing them is unbounded, unhealthy and addictive?
        Barrin92 8y ago
        >Should we in-game purchases for those in-game items too, under the premise that purchasing them is unbounded, unhealthy and addictive? I think that the premise is a little weaker for straight up purchases because the uncertainty associated with gambling is what makes it so exciting, but yes if we would observe that a lots of children or families are unable to manage their finances and that this negatively impacts the financial behaviour of especially young adults, sure I don't see any problem with regulating them and limiting the use of those mechanisms in videogames.
CPLX 8y ago
There's something fundamentally different about the dynamic when you have to actually go out into the real world, get a store, etc. It drastically slows down one's ability to get themselves into trouble.
finaliteration 8y ago
> Maybe that says something about differences between the two industries, or maybe that says something about how society has progressed in the past two decades. I think it says more about how little friction there is to click a button, spend money, and get a loot box vs walking to the store with cash in hand to get a physical pack of cards. Sure, I could drop $100 on a booster box, but it still required that I had the money in hand and had to physically go somewhere to get it. Those cards also took up space and had to be kept organized to keep track of valued vs non-valued cards. It took a lot of work to get that hit of dopamine, whereas now a 15-year-old kid can sit down at a computer and within 30 seconds start dumping tons of money into loot boxes.
the-pigeon 8y ago
For me personally it's about double dipping. I'll play a free game that is monetized via loot boxes. But I won't buy a game that then requires me to buy loot boxes to do better in the game because in my mind I already paid for the game and shouldn't have to pay any more.
- recursive 8y ago
  Game A costs, but the loot is free. Game B is free, but the loot boxes cost. Game C is half-price, and has half-price loot boxes. Why is C a problem? It's a mid-point between A and B.
  - teddyh 8y ago
    Since the odds can be manipulated from moment to moment, there is no way to know if game C really has half-price loot boxes. The only way to be sure that you’re not paying full price anyway (via manipulated statistics and game mechanics) is for there not to be any loot boxes at all.
    - recursive 8y ago
      That sounds like a problem with paid loot-boxes, not "double-dipping". Loot boxes might be double-priced even if the game is free by your same logic. There would be no way to know.
  - robotresearcher 8y ago
    Parent didn't say it was a problem, just stated a preference. I agree with them. I've been buying games for 30 years (good grief) and suddenly they want me to pay inside the game. Just feels bad. I don't mind paying for good content, but pay to win is a deal breaker.
lenocinor 8y ago
I don't know if it factors in here much, but another point is that you also generally can't re-sell items from loot boxes, whereas at least you can sell the cards afterwards to help defray costs.

by JackCh 8y ago

niij 8y ago

> says something about how society has progressed in the past two decades Or regressed, depending on your views about personal liberty and what the obligations of the state are.

JackCh 8y ago
Was it also a regression when governments around the world banned children from gambling in casinos?
- celticninja 8y ago
  And working in coal mines.
  - niij 8y ago
    Spending money on virtual games is miles away from child labor. I don't think you'll find very many people in here arguing that anti-child labor laws are a bad thing, so I find your comment a bit of a red-herring.
- niij 8y ago
  I guess it depends on where you draw the line on when liberty should be taken away from children (or their guardians) to make choices on what they are/are not allowed to do. Personally, I believe casinos pose a risk of not only spending money, but also exposure to much more harmful activities (drugs, prostitution, violence). These other risks have to factor into the equation, and for playing a game on a computer/phone, those risks just aren't there like they are in a casino. That's why I have a separate opinion on loot crates vs casinos. I guess what I am getting at is that loot crates can only be a waste of money, but kids already spend their money on other "wasteful" activities like purchasing video games, so why should there be any difference just because the mechanics of the game are different?
  - Barrin92 8y ago
    >difference just because the mechanics of the game are different? yes, because the mechanism of gambling is addictive. (this too applies to subsets of video games as well, but at least most of them don't allow open-ended money spending) Obviously it depends on everybody's definition of liberty, but most people seem to be happy to, as a society, put limits on the consumption of goods that foster unhealthy, addictive behaviour in individuals and cause financial or personal damage. I for example don't have a problem with video games that foster creativity, problem solving and leave children with genuinely satisfying experiences. I am concerned about social media and games that only implement stick and carrot mechanisms to maximize the time children spend in front of them.
    - niij 8y ago
      I agree with you that video games can be unhealthy. But why should these crates be legislated, just because their outcome is random? Does it really present any more harm than video games and in-game purchases in general? I spent a good amount of money on pay-to-win games when I was younger (buying weapon upgrades, more materials, gold, etc), the only difference was that the exact item was listed-- no surprises. Why should anyone besides my guardian decide whether or not that counts as "unhealthy, addictive behavior"? I could have bought a nearly endless supply of these in-game items that really served no purpose just as much as people do with loot crates. Should we in-game purchases for those in-game items too, under the premise that purchasing them is unbounded, unhealthy and addictive?
      - Barrin92 8y ago
        >Should we in-game purchases for those in-game items too, under the premise that purchasing them is unbounded, unhealthy and addictive? I think that the premise is a little weaker for straight up purchases because the uncertainty associated with gambling is what makes it so exciting, but yes if we would observe that a lots of children or families are unable to manage their finances and that this negatively impacts the financial behaviour of especially young adults, sure I don't see any problem with regulating them and limiting the use of those mechanisms in videogames.

CPLX 8y ago

There's something fundamentally different about the dynamic when you have to actually go out into the real world, get a store, etc. It drastically slows down one's ability to get themselves into trouble.

finaliteration 8y ago

> Maybe that says something about differences between the two industries, or maybe that says something about how society has progressed in the past two decades. I think it says more about how little friction there is to click a button, spend money, and get a loot box vs walking to the store with cash in hand to get a physical pack of cards. Sure, I could drop $100 on a booster box, but it still required that I had the money in hand and had to physically go somewhere to get it. Those cards also took up space and had to be kept organized to keep track of valued vs non-valued cards. It took a lot of work to get that hit of dopamine, whereas now a 15-year-old kid can sit down at a computer and within 30 seconds start dumping tons of money into loot boxes.

the-pigeon 8y ago

For me personally it's about double dipping. I'll play a free game that is monetized via loot boxes. But I won't buy a game that then requires me to buy loot boxes to do better in the game because in my mind I already paid for the game and shouldn't have to pay any more.

recursive 8y ago
Game A costs, but the loot is free. Game B is free, but the loot boxes cost. Game C is half-price, and has half-price loot boxes. Why is C a problem? It's a mid-point between A and B.
- teddyh 8y ago
  Since the odds can be manipulated from moment to moment, there is no way to know if game C really has half-price loot boxes. The only way to be sure that you’re not paying full price anyway (via manipulated statistics and game mechanics) is for there not to be any loot boxes at all.
  - recursive 8y ago
    That sounds like a problem with paid loot-boxes, not "double-dipping". Loot boxes might be double-priced even if the game is free by your same logic. There would be no way to know.
- robotresearcher 8y ago
  Parent didn't say it was a problem, just stated a preference. I agree with them. I've been buying games for 30 years (good grief) and suddenly they want me to pay inside the game. Just feels bad. I don't mind paying for good content, but pay to win is a deal breaker.

lenocinor 8y ago

I don't know if it factors in here much, but another point is that you also generally can't re-sell items from loot boxes, whereas at least you can sell the cards afterwards to help defray costs.