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I wish it was politically possible to make more dedicated bus lanes. When I see a couple of private cars blocking 3 buses with ~100 people in each I get so angr

I wish it was politically possible to make more dedicated bus lanes. When I see a couple of private cars blocking 3 buses with ~100 people in each I get so angry. From a utilitarian point of view bus only lanes are a no-brainer, at least in peak. A visualization: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tfJHpDfakqo/Up_mmjALPtI/AAAAAAABQMI/0HglbuZ67Ss/s1600/1450162_455633184542419_1077834738_n%5B1%5D.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tfJHpDfakqo/Up_mmjALPtI/AAAAAAABQM...

closeparen 9y ago
Consider the empty space between buses on a dedicated bus lane with realistic headways.
- jakecopp 9y ago
  For a correct comparison, you would have to combine the 5 car traffic lanes into one to compare throughput to the bus lane. My previous image looks like maybe 500m, so say 2.5km long line of cars. Cars can't travel that close together. For driving at say 70kph which is around 20m/s, for a safe 3s distance between cars you need 60m for each car. I guess around 30 cars in each lane of the photo, so 5x30=150 cars 60m x 150 cars = 9000m= 9km So now we are up to a 9+2.5=11.5km line of cars PER BUS!! I would argue you can get better bus headway than that right now, but if a bus has its own lane you get faster average speed, which means you have less buses on the route at any one point, which means you can keep the original number of buses and run them with high frequency/smaller headway. Cars will never be able to compete with public transport with dedicated right of way. If only cars would get out of the damn way of buses and light rail. Feel free to show me I'm wrong though, happy to learn.
  - closeparen 9y ago
    11.5km at 70kph is 10 minutes. That's on the aggressive side (but plausible) for peak-hours frequency of the most popular bus routes in the top 5 American cities for public transit. Just to break even with car traffic. That was my point. 60m following distance is quite optimistic, the bus's stops count for something, and the only way you're getting 150 people on a bus is with the majority as standees, so you're comparing luxury living-room couches to a sardine can, and the sardine can isn't even doing that well on capacity. I agree that in a theoretical universe with i.e. 2-minute bus headways, the bus wins hands down, but I'm not optimistic that any American BRT project will even try for better than 15.
    - yostrovs 9y ago
      Plus the public's usage of public transit is going down. Americans are, for whatever reasons, not interested in public transport unless they're forced to use it. And they don't like to be forced.
      - closeparen 9y ago
        It's not actually clear that this is a lack of interest. Socioeconomically disadvantaged urban populations had the highest rates of transit usage, and resurgent upper-middle-class interest in cities means those populations are displaced to cheaper pastures that don't necessarily have usable transit. It could actually be the case that the gentrifiers are deliberately increasing their transit utilization from zero (just not enough to make up for the loss due to displacement), and displaced populations still want to be transit users, but can't afford areas with good transit anymore.
        yostrovs 9y ago
        Maybe. In my experience, simply the idea of getting on a bus frightens average Americans. The train seems less scary. So for those that have the freedom to make the choice, the bus is not the choice they make. And trains are rare save for a few cities.
        closeparen 9y ago
        Regardless of the role fear/classism play, the average speed for American bus systems is in the vicinity of a brisk walk, and that's while you're in motion. Throw in a 15 minute headway and it becomes a hilariously poor option to someone who has alternatives.
        wbl 9y ago
        Fixable issues. You'ld be shocked to know the Model T was less reliable than a horse.
      - 9y ago
KineticLensman 9y ago
Bus lanes can be controversial. I cite the bus lane on the M4 motorway in the UK [0], on the stretch that connected Heathrow airport (UK's major air hub) to central London - one of the busiest road sections in the UK. As someone who used this motorway as a single occupancy car driver, it was deeply frustrating to sit for ages in stationary traffic in the remaining two lanes with occasional vehicles (buses, coaches, taxis and motorbikes) going past on the bus lane, sometimes with minutes between them. Removing the bus lane was specifically mentioned in the 2010 Conservative party conference and was a controversial point on programmes such as Top Gear. It was suspended in 2010, reopened temporarily for the 2012 Olympics and then completely scrapped. Anecdotally, bus lanes are still widespread on non-motorway roads in UK towns and cities. I have no problems with these lanes, since they seem to have a better ratio of full, frequent buses to cars than on the M4 motorway. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_bus_lane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_bus_lane
- gchadwick 9y ago
  Do you find you sit in stationary far less now the bus lane has been removed?
  - KineticLensman 9y ago
    Good question! I don't drive the route often enough to give a proper assessment although it doesn't seem worse. Getting off-topic, but I've been a heavy user of the M27 / M3 for approx 25 years. In that time, the main delay that I encounter routinely is now the stretch from Southampton to Winchester whereas it used to be the top end of the M3 (around Junction 4a). More generally, although the UK's traffic density has increased this (anecdotally) seems to have been offset to some extent by significant improvements in several key motorway junctions (e.g. M27/M3, A34/M4), which I feel that I can often get through faster than I used to.
- psychometry 9y ago
  Um, maybe you should just take the bus yourself if it's so frustrating?

closeparen 9y ago

Consider the empty space between buses on a dedicated bus lane with realistic headways.

jakecopp 9y ago
For a correct comparison, you would have to combine the 5 car traffic lanes into one to compare throughput to the bus lane. My previous image looks like maybe 500m, so say 2.5km long line of cars. Cars can't travel that close together. For driving at say 70kph which is around 20m/s, for a safe 3s distance between cars you need 60m for each car. I guess around 30 cars in each lane of the photo, so 5x30=150 cars 60m x 150 cars = 9000m= 9km So now we are up to a 9+2.5=11.5km line of cars PER BUS!! I would argue you can get better bus headway than that right now, but if a bus has its own lane you get faster average speed, which means you have less buses on the route at any one point, which means you can keep the original number of buses and run them with high frequency/smaller headway. Cars will never be able to compete with public transport with dedicated right of way. If only cars would get out of the damn way of buses and light rail. Feel free to show me I'm wrong though, happy to learn.
- closeparen 9y ago
  11.5km at 70kph is 10 minutes. That's on the aggressive side (but plausible) for peak-hours frequency of the most popular bus routes in the top 5 American cities for public transit. Just to break even with car traffic. That was my point. 60m following distance is quite optimistic, the bus's stops count for something, and the only way you're getting 150 people on a bus is with the majority as standees, so you're comparing luxury living-room couches to a sardine can, and the sardine can isn't even doing that well on capacity. I agree that in a theoretical universe with i.e. 2-minute bus headways, the bus wins hands down, but I'm not optimistic that any American BRT project will even try for better than 15.
  - yostrovs 9y ago
    Plus the public's usage of public transit is going down. Americans are, for whatever reasons, not interested in public transport unless they're forced to use it. And they don't like to be forced.
    - closeparen 9y ago
      It's not actually clear that this is a lack of interest. Socioeconomically disadvantaged urban populations had the highest rates of transit usage, and resurgent upper-middle-class interest in cities means those populations are displaced to cheaper pastures that don't necessarily have usable transit. It could actually be the case that the gentrifiers are deliberately increasing their transit utilization from zero (just not enough to make up for the loss due to displacement), and displaced populations still want to be transit users, but can't afford areas with good transit anymore.
      - yostrovs 9y ago
        Maybe. In my experience, simply the idea of getting on a bus frightens average Americans. The train seems less scary. So for those that have the freedom to make the choice, the bus is not the choice they make. And trains are rare save for a few cities.
        closeparen 9y ago
        Regardless of the role fear/classism play, the average speed for American bus systems is in the vicinity of a brisk walk, and that's while you're in motion. Throw in a 15 minute headway and it becomes a hilariously poor option to someone who has alternatives.
        wbl 9y ago
        Fixable issues. You'ld be shocked to know the Model T was less reliable than a horse.
    - 9y ago

KineticLensman 9y ago

Bus lanes can be controversial. I cite the bus lane on the M4 motorway in the UK [0], on the stretch that connected Heathrow airport (UK's major air hub) to central London - one of the busiest road sections in the UK. As someone who used this motorway as a single occupancy car driver, it was deeply frustrating to sit for ages in stationary traffic in the remaining two lanes with occasional vehicles (buses, coaches, taxis and motorbikes) going past on the bus lane, sometimes with minutes between them. Removing the bus lane was specifically mentioned in the 2010 Conservative party conference and was a controversial point on programmes such as Top Gear. It was suspended in 2010, reopened temporarily for the 2012 Olympics and then completely scrapped. Anecdotally, bus lanes are still widespread on non-motorway roads in UK towns and cities. I have no problems with these lanes, since they seem to have a better ratio of full, frequent buses to cars than on the M4 motorway. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_bus_lane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_bus_lane

gchadwick 9y ago
Do you find you sit in stationary far less now the bus lane has been removed?
- KineticLensman 9y ago
  Good question! I don't drive the route often enough to give a proper assessment although it doesn't seem worse. Getting off-topic, but I've been a heavy user of the M27 / M3 for approx 25 years. In that time, the main delay that I encounter routinely is now the stretch from Southampton to Winchester whereas it used to be the top end of the M3 (around Junction 4a). More generally, although the UK's traffic density has increased this (anecdotally) seems to have been offset to some extent by significant improvements in several key motorway junctions (e.g. M27/M3, A34/M4), which I feel that I can often get through faster than I used to.
psychometry 9y ago
Um, maybe you should just take the bus yourself if it's so frustrating?