3 ms·

Well written and makes a lot of great points, however... I am no fan of Facebook, but you have to give it and other social networks some credit for giving commu

by magpi3 9y ago

Well written and makes a lot of great points, however... I am no fan of Facebook, but you have to give it and other social networks some credit for giving communities - real communities - tools to organize. For example, we've rapidly gone through a generational shift in how people view lgbtq persons in the past 20 years, and I entirely (admittedly without any hard data) attribute that shift to the tools the internet and social networks have provided that have allowed lgbtq communities to connect, organize, and educate non-lgbtq folks like me.

headsoup 9y ago
Perhaps, but those tools do exist anyway. Facebook increases 'discoverability' of groups/communities, but a forum/blog/etc aggregation/search capability would do the same without requiring login to a different service. Facebook is the lazy way, with side effects.
- PeterisP 9y ago
  For most non-techie communities, the pre-social network tools (e.g. having someone set up a website and a forum for that community) had a so high barrier to entry that they did not use them. The few communities who happened to have a skilled member eager to volunteer would use such tools, but the rest of them could not. Being able to reliably use social networking tools made and maintained (though also controlled) by others was important to make this accessible to them. The non-"lazy" (as you call it) way simply is not a realistic alternative for most of the population.
pjc50 9y ago
You can't give Facebook credit for lgbT acceptance when for a long time they banned trans people. They're also bad at moderation due to not understanding language; https://www.wired.com/story/facebooks-hate-speech-policies-censor-marginalized-users/ https://www.wired.com/story/facebooks-hate-speech-policies-c... The internet may well have been great for lgbt acceptance but it's despite not because of Facebook.
- votepaunchy 9y ago
  > for a long time they banned trans people Citation needed.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_real-name_policy_controversy#Transgender_users https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_real-name_policy_cont... http://www.moyoliving.org/blog_posts/46 http://www.moyoliving.org/blog_posts/46 https://www.change.org/p/facebook-stop-facebook-banning-transgender-people-who-use-their-preferred-name https://www.change.org/p/facebook-stop-facebook-banning-tran...
- nl 9y ago
  I think many people (not just FB) have made mistakes on lgbT acceptance, and trans acceptance can be one of the harder areas to get right (many people just don't know what accepted behavior is). I had no idea about dead-naming etc. I think FB should have done better, but I think their apology did seem genuine. So I think criticism is valid, but they also deserve some credit. It's not like anyone knew how to run a social network in 2012.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    More of a "customer service" problem: there were plenty of people telling them it was a bad idea right from the start, but they didn't listen. > It's not like anyone knew how to run a social network in 2012. Only if you try hard not to see prior art. "Online communities" of one sort or another have existed as long as the internet, and wrestled with questions of what constitutes abuse. Really the problem is that Facebook has gone from a mere product to something quite important to society without going through a self-examination period. It's also, oddly, never really tried to have a relationship with its users as a community or communities. Tom being your "friend" on Myspace may have been a gimmick but at least it was pretending that the relationship existed.
    - nl 9y ago

by magpi3 9y ago

headsoup 9y ago

Perhaps, but those tools do exist anyway. Facebook increases 'discoverability' of groups/communities, but a forum/blog/etc aggregation/search capability would do the same without requiring login to a different service. Facebook is the lazy way, with side effects.

PeterisP 9y ago
For most non-techie communities, the pre-social network tools (e.g. having someone set up a website and a forum for that community) had a so high barrier to entry that they did not use them. The few communities who happened to have a skilled member eager to volunteer would use such tools, but the rest of them could not. Being able to reliably use social networking tools made and maintained (though also controlled) by others was important to make this accessible to them. The non-"lazy" (as you call it) way simply is not a realistic alternative for most of the population.

pjc50 9y ago

You can't give Facebook credit for lgbT acceptance when for a long time they banned trans people. They're also bad at moderation due to not understanding language; https://www.wired.com/story/facebooks-hate-speech-policies-censor-marginalized-users/ https://www.wired.com/story/facebooks-hate-speech-policies-c... The internet may well have been great for lgbt acceptance but it's despite not because of Facebook.

votepaunchy 9y ago
> for a long time they banned trans people Citation needed.
- pjc50 9y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_real-name_policy_controversy#Transgender_users https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_real-name_policy_cont... http://www.moyoliving.org/blog_posts/46 http://www.moyoliving.org/blog_posts/46 https://www.change.org/p/facebook-stop-facebook-banning-transgender-people-who-use-their-preferred-name https://www.change.org/p/facebook-stop-facebook-banning-tran...
nl 9y ago
I think many people (not just FB) have made mistakes on lgbT acceptance, and trans acceptance can be one of the harder areas to get right (many people just don't know what accepted behavior is). I had no idea about dead-naming etc. I think FB should have done better, but I think their apology did seem genuine. So I think criticism is valid, but they also deserve some credit. It's not like anyone knew how to run a social network in 2012.
- pjc50 9y ago
  More of a "customer service" problem: there were plenty of people telling them it was a bad idea right from the start, but they didn't listen. > It's not like anyone knew how to run a social network in 2012. Only if you try hard not to see prior art. "Online communities" of one sort or another have existed as long as the internet, and wrestled with questions of what constitutes abuse. Really the problem is that Facebook has gone from a mere product to something quite important to society without going through a self-examination period. It's also, oddly, never really tried to have a relationship with its users as a community or communities. Tom being your "friend" on Myspace may have been a gimmick but at least it was pretending that the relationship existed.
  - nl 9y ago