5 ms·

Let's call it what it is: a fabrication. The people who created Drew Cloud are liars. And they lie for money. In my view this should mark the end of their care

by lolc 9y ago

Let's call it what it is: a fabrication. The people who created Drew Cloud are liars. And they lie for money. In my view this should mark the end of their careers. They should be welcomed to see the error of their ways and try again with better ethics. Unfortunately this is not how it will go. There is great demand for professional liars, and these authors will not have to stop and think over. If you're going to lie, make sure your motives are above personal gain. Well, have I just binned the entire industry of ghostwriters as liars over this minor outrage? Or is it different if the person I'm writing for actually exists? I'll have to mull this over.

soperj 9y ago
The most famous write in person is also a fabrication: Ann Landers.
- mikeyouse 9y ago
  A pen name isn't remotely the same as a fabrication like "Mr. Cloud".
  - koala_man 9y ago
    It was a pen name backed by multiple writers. Why is it different?
    - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
      Was there a commercial conflict of interest between the writing and the writers?
      - mikeyouse 9y ago
        And it was always understood to be a pen name. Nobody was under the illusion that there was someone named "Ann Landers" dispensing advice, they even held a contest for the replacement when one of the earlier writers passed away.
        kolpa 9y ago
        How can you say that "nobody was under the illusion"? Surely millions of people were -- the newspapers didn't disclose that the name was a pseudonym, and plenty of other advice columnists aren't pseudonyms.
        lolc 9y ago
        Interesting. I guess the difference is she never claimed to be a real person. Though I don't know that. I have a hard time believing that if the question was posed "are you real?" the answer would have been "I'm traveling between conferences."
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        evincarofautumn 9y ago
        I don’t usually claim to be a real person either, but it’s generally assumed that I am.
        wpietri 9y ago
        If you think that's bad, let me tell you about this dude supposedly called "Mark Twain". Beloved American humorist? Or lying liar with pants on fire? You be the judge.
        hoistbypetard 9y ago
        It wasn't always printed at the bottom of the column, but it was always disclosed. If someone wanted to talk to the columnist, they didn't correspond at length with journalists under the fake name. Or claim that Abigail Van Buren was unavailable due to travel. Contemporaneous newspaper articles discussing the writers behind the columns are easy to find.[1] [1](https://www.nytimes.com/1971/05/18/archives/a-rival-for-ann-landers-and-dear-abby-but-its-in-the-family.html https://www.nytimes.com/1971/05/18/archives/a-rival-for-ann-...)
        ergothus 9y ago
        While in college I lived with a Russian rocket scientist visiting the university. (Apparently Russia is kickass at rocket science, they've just struggled to build them as well as they design) He was a hoot, embodying several russian stereotypes and teaching me new ones. One day I came into the kitchen and he was studying the newspaper. "At first, was very concerned..." he said, in a thick-but-very-clear Russian accent. (Georgian, I think, though I wouldn't know) "...giving so much power to a woman." Indeed, he was speaking with great gravitas. "But is very wise, this...'Dear Abby'"
      - koala_man 9y ago
        I'm taking this as a snarky way of saying "It's different because this time there is a conflict of interest", but I still don't follow. Undisclosed conflicts of interest are an issue whether or not you sign your real name.
    - hoistbypetard 9y ago
      It was only one person writing at a time under the pen name. And they didn't make up a biography for the pen name. And they didn't have an undisclosed conflict of interest. And when journalists[1] inquired about the identity of the columnist they didn't try to hide it. Maybe those are minor differences, but "Ann Landers" "Dear Abby" "Dear Prudence" and similar feel different than a corporate team of people working on behalf of a loan refinance company giving you advice about loans. In a related vein, learning that Franklin W. Dixon and Carolyn Keene (famous for _The Hardy Boys_ and _Nancy Drew_ novels) were really whole teams of ghostwriters surprised me.[2] I had always thought they were similar to the advice columnists, with one person adopting the pen name for a long run. [1](https://www.nytimes.com/1971/05/18/archives/a-rival-for-ann-landers-and-dear-abby-but-its-in-the-family.html https://www.nytimes.com/1971/05/18/archives/a-rival-for-ann-...) [2](https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/05/hardy-boys-nancy-drew-ghostwriters/394022/ https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/05/ha...)
- gm-conspiracy 9y ago
  Mrs. Silence Dogood?
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> In my view this should mark the end of their careers I'm not convinced it isn't illegal, given Shop Tutors, Inc. d/b/a LendEDU works with lenders. Their "Best Personal Loans for 2018" page [1] lists SoFi, Citizens Bank, Goldman Sachs, Prosper, Upgrade, FreedomPlus, Upstart, Lightstream, Lending Club, Payoff, Best Egg, Avant and Lending Point, as well as itself, lenders who presumably pay LendEDU a referral fee. If you have a relationship with one of these firms, it might make sense to drop them this article in a support message. If you borrowed through LendEDU, or know someone who did, file a consumer complaint with (a) the FTC [2], (b) your state financial services regulator and (c) your state attorney general [3]. [1] https://lendedu.com/blog/best-personal-loans https://lendedu.com/blog/best-personal-loans [2] https://www.ftc.gov https://www.ftc.gov [3] http://www.naag.org/naag/attorneys-general/whos-my-ag.php http://www.naag.org/naag/attorneys-general/whos-my-ag.php
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  > If you borrowed through LendEDU, or know someone who did, file a consumer complaint with (a) the FTC [2], (b) your state financial services regulator and (c) your state attorney general [3]. I would also suggest filing a complaint with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) [1]. [1] https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/ https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/ | (855) 411-2372
  - lygaret 9y ago
    Just do it soon, before Mulvaney shuts the bureau down.
    - stagstal82 9y ago
      File complaints with both the CFPB and FTC. This is a textbook "deceptive practice", and both agencies have jurisdiction over this type of thing. The more noise we make, the more likely they are to act.
paulcole 9y ago
> The people who created Drew Cloud are liars. And they lie for money. If this is a crime lock me up. Who isn’t lying in some way at work everyday?
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > Who isn’t lying in some way at work everyday? Most people. A chief commercial skill is knowing to keep quiet or change topics instead of saying something unambiguously untrue.
  - jfoutz 9y ago
    Depending on your ethics, a lie of omission is still a lie.
  - paulcole 9y ago
    If you're so close to lying you have to change the subject to avoid doing it, how is that any better?
    - quickthrower2 9y ago
      Let's talk about something else.
    - fnordsensei 9y ago
      Can we agree that refraining from consciously speaking outright lies for profit is at least a requirement for ethical behaviour? Whether it's sufficient is a different story.
glenstein 9y ago
>In my view this should mark the end of their careers. They should be welcomed to see the error of their ways and try again with better ethics. While I emphatically agree with the gist of your comment, the one problem I have with the quoted part above is that I don't see how the first sentence squares with the second. When Stephen Glass was found to have fabricated stories for the New Republic, he wasn't given a do-over. He had to switch careers. I think that's the right way to handle fabrication.
- lolc 9y ago
  I agree. With try again I meant start over.

by lolc 9y ago

soperj 9y ago

The most famous write in person is also a fabrication: Ann Landers.

mikeyouse 9y ago
A pen name isn't remotely the same as a fabrication like "Mr. Cloud".
- koala_man 9y ago
  It was a pen name backed by multiple writers. Why is it different?
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    Was there a commercial conflict of interest between the writing and the writers?
    - mikeyouse 9y ago
      And it was always understood to be a pen name. Nobody was under the illusion that there was someone named "Ann Landers" dispensing advice, they even held a contest for the replacement when one of the earlier writers passed away.
      - kolpa 9y ago
        How can you say that "nobody was under the illusion"? Surely millions of people were -- the newspapers didn't disclose that the name was a pseudonym, and plenty of other advice columnists aren't pseudonyms.
        lolc 9y ago
        Interesting. I guess the difference is she never claimed to be a real person. Though I don't know that. I have a hard time believing that if the question was posed "are you real?" the answer would have been "I'm traveling between conferences."
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        evincarofautumn 9y ago
        I don’t usually claim to be a real person either, but it’s generally assumed that I am.
        wpietri 9y ago
        If you think that's bad, let me tell you about this dude supposedly called "Mark Twain". Beloved American humorist? Or lying liar with pants on fire? You be the judge.
        hoistbypetard 9y ago
        It wasn't always printed at the bottom of the column, but it was always disclosed. If someone wanted to talk to the columnist, they didn't correspond at length with journalists under the fake name. Or claim that Abigail Van Buren was unavailable due to travel. Contemporaneous newspaper articles discussing the writers behind the columns are easy to find.[1] [1](https://www.nytimes.com/1971/05/18/archives/a-rival-for-ann-landers-and-dear-abby-but-its-in-the-family.html https://www.nytimes.com/1971/05/18/archives/a-rival-for-ann-...)
      - ergothus 9y ago
        While in college I lived with a Russian rocket scientist visiting the university. (Apparently Russia is kickass at rocket science, they've just struggled to build them as well as they design) He was a hoot, embodying several russian stereotypes and teaching me new ones. One day I came into the kitchen and he was studying the newspaper. "At first, was very concerned..." he said, in a thick-but-very-clear Russian accent. (Georgian, I think, though I wouldn't know) "...giving so much power to a woman." Indeed, he was speaking with great gravitas. "But is very wise, this...'Dear Abby'"
    - koala_man 9y ago
      I'm taking this as a snarky way of saying "It's different because this time there is a conflict of interest", but I still don't follow. Undisclosed conflicts of interest are an issue whether or not you sign your real name.
  - hoistbypetard 9y ago
    It was only one person writing at a time under the pen name. And they didn't make up a biography for the pen name. And they didn't have an undisclosed conflict of interest. And when journalists[1] inquired about the identity of the columnist they didn't try to hide it. Maybe those are minor differences, but "Ann Landers" "Dear Abby" "Dear Prudence" and similar feel different than a corporate team of people working on behalf of a loan refinance company giving you advice about loans. In a related vein, learning that Franklin W. Dixon and Carolyn Keene (famous for _The Hardy Boys_ and _Nancy Drew_ novels) were really whole teams of ghostwriters surprised me.[2] I had always thought they were similar to the advice columnists, with one person adopting the pen name for a long run. [1](https://www.nytimes.com/1971/05/18/archives/a-rival-for-ann-landers-and-dear-abby-but-its-in-the-family.html https://www.nytimes.com/1971/05/18/archives/a-rival-for-ann-...) [2](https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/05/hardy-boys-nancy-drew-ghostwriters/394022/ https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/05/ha...)
gm-conspiracy 9y ago
Mrs. Silence Dogood?

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

> In my view this should mark the end of their careers I'm not convinced it isn't illegal, given Shop Tutors, Inc. d/b/a LendEDU works with lenders. Their "Best Personal Loans for 2018" page [1] lists SoFi, Citizens Bank, Goldman Sachs, Prosper, Upgrade, FreedomPlus, Upstart, Lightstream, Lending Club, Payoff, Best Egg, Avant and Lending Point, as well as itself, lenders who presumably pay LendEDU a referral fee. If you have a relationship with one of these firms, it might make sense to drop them this article in a support message. If you borrowed through LendEDU, or know someone who did, file a consumer complaint with (a) the FTC [2], (b) your state financial services regulator and (c) your state attorney general [3]. [1] https://lendedu.com/blog/best-personal-loans https://lendedu.com/blog/best-personal-loans [2] https://www.ftc.gov https://www.ftc.gov [3] http://www.naag.org/naag/attorneys-general/whos-my-ag.php http://www.naag.org/naag/attorneys-general/whos-my-ag.php

toomuchtodo 9y ago
> If you borrowed through LendEDU, or know someone who did, file a consumer complaint with (a) the FTC [2], (b) your state financial services regulator and (c) your state attorney general [3]. I would also suggest filing a complaint with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) [1]. [1] https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/ https://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/ | (855) 411-2372
- lygaret 9y ago
  Just do it soon, before Mulvaney shuts the bureau down.
  - stagstal82 9y ago
    File complaints with both the CFPB and FTC. This is a textbook "deceptive practice", and both agencies have jurisdiction over this type of thing. The more noise we make, the more likely they are to act.

paulcole 9y ago

> The people who created Drew Cloud are liars. And they lie for money. If this is a crime lock me up. Who isn’t lying in some way at work everyday?

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> Who isn’t lying in some way at work everyday? Most people. A chief commercial skill is knowing to keep quiet or change topics instead of saying something unambiguously untrue.
- jfoutz 9y ago
  Depending on your ethics, a lie of omission is still a lie.
- paulcole 9y ago
  If you're so close to lying you have to change the subject to avoid doing it, how is that any better?
  - quickthrower2 9y ago
    Let's talk about something else.
  - fnordsensei 9y ago
    Can we agree that refraining from consciously speaking outright lies for profit is at least a requirement for ethical behaviour? Whether it's sufficient is a different story.

glenstein 9y ago

>In my view this should mark the end of their careers. They should be welcomed to see the error of their ways and try again with better ethics. While I emphatically agree with the gist of your comment, the one problem I have with the quoted part above is that I don't see how the first sentence squares with the second. When Stephen Glass was found to have fabricated stories for the New Republic, he wasn't given a do-over. He had to switch careers. I think that's the right way to handle fabrication.

lolc 9y ago
I agree. With try again I meant start over.