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I initially was bah humbugy about these scooters, but after reading an article that points out we have acres of space devoted to private automobiles, and that i

I initially was bah humbugy about these scooters, but after reading an article that points out we have acres of space devoted to private automobiles, and that it really wouldn't be hard to accommodate these electric scooters, I changed my mind. They look fun, they seem more flexible than the hard-wired go-bike stations, and they don't seem super expensive. It's pretty obvious that our cities are broken, and SF needs help in particular. I've worked at companies that had to choose between being near bart or near caltrain to provide a shorter commute to different employees. The time it took to walk across soma was non-trivial and annoyed people. Ultimately the caltrain commuters used foot-powered scooters. As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. Being in traffic is exceedingly dangerous, and apparently as long as someone else's life on the line you're good with it. If "sidewalks" were a lot larger, then there would be more ability to mix traffic. See: the embarcadero. Let's work on our cities and have some fun doing it!

JoeAltmaier 8y ago
I have more sympathy for pedestrians. They go around 2-3mph. Auto traffic around 25-50. Bikes and scooters are way closer to cars than pedestrians. So, its a matter of risking the safety of cyclist, or pedestrians. No clear win there I can see.
- seanp2k2 8y ago
  Sidewalks also have two-way traffic whereas the bike lane should be only one direction (which is also the direction of car traffic).
- randyrand 8y ago
  walking 3-4, scooter 10-15, cars 25-60. each is about 3x more than the previous. But it's a stupid comparison for safety. Colliding with a scooter will rarely be fatal, regardless of the 3x. But cyclist often get killed.
  - seanp2k2 8y ago
    See also: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/535/why-does-kinetic-energy-increase-quadratically-not-linearly-with-speed https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/535/why-does-kin... There's a LOT more energy being transferred into whatever the car hits both because it's going much faster and because it's much heavier.
  - fiter 8y ago
    The chance of collision should also be considered. Since intersection collisions are the same or worse for riding a bicycle on the sidewalk, we should consider overtaking while there is insufficient space which seems like it would be a strong function of extra space on either the road or the sidewalk and relative speeds. Im not sure why you listed 60 as I'm not really aware of any roads with such a limit that also reasonably expect bicycle traffic.
    - jessaustin 8y ago
      All the roads around my house have a 55 limit. If I didn't bike on them I wouldn't bike at all.
      - fiter 8y ago
        Wow. Is this Arizona?
        jessaustin 8y ago
        Missouri
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    Arguing "Sure bikes will hit you, but it will rarely be fatal!" is not terribly convincing. Its reasonable for pedestrians to want bikes off the sidewalk. The chance of collision is far greater. I know its a hard statistic for bikes to swallow. There seems to be no winning for them. But that's my whole point.
- leohutson 8y ago
  This is a completely irrational way to look at it. The risk of a pedestrian fatality posed by a collision with a car travelling 30kmh is closer to the risk from a car going 5kmh than that of a car going 50kmh. Look at the chart here: http://www.victoriawalks.org.au/safe_speed/ http://www.victoriawalks.org.au/safe_speed/ The risk from speed is non-linear. Risk the pedestrians in speed zone greater than 30kmh, because risk of fatal injury is far lower.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    Don't know many bikes in my community that go 5mph. They're going 20, commuting miles to work. Anyway, the pedestrians don't risk either now. So saying "Folks should be comfortable adding a reasonable risk of death, since it could be far worse!" is not compelling.
justboxing 8y ago
> As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that Nothing self-righteous about that. Sidewalks are -- as the name itself suggests - meant for WALKING on the SIDE of the road, not for riding scooters and other vehicles which pose a danger to other people walking. Only exception being people on wheelchairs, but they aren't driving at break-neck speeds like an electric scooter rider, or a bicyclist.
- FooHentai 8y ago
  If we're gonna play that silly game, what about roads, from the old English rād meaning 'journey on horseback'.
  - gamblor956 8y ago
    Why is the Old English meaning of the precursor word relevant? The modern word is road and it means thoroughfare.
    - FooHentai 8y ago
      Right. It's almost like the name of something has no bearing on what the thing could be used for.
      - c22 8y ago
        I always get a kick out of manipulating widgets on my bank's online "dashboard".
      - gamblor956 8y ago
        In the case of sidewalk vs rad vs road, you're making the wrong argument. We do not have "rads" anymore, we have "roads." "Road" is derived from "rad" but they are two different words with different meanings. A sidewalk is a walking area on the side of a road, and that meaning of the word has not changed. Bikes, for example, or prohibited from sidewalks in most Western jurisdictions (lack of enforcement notwithstanding), and essentially all Western jurisdictions prohibit motorized vehicles from sidewalks. In both cases, it is because the sidewalks are meant for "pedestrians", i.e., people walking.
fstuff 8y ago
>As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. I strongly disagree with this. I've owned an electric scooter for over a year now and I learned real fast that it's super dangerous to ride on the sidewalk. The problem with pedestrians is that they are not looking out for scooters. People will wander into your path and depending on how fast you're going you may collide. Also you can't see people walking out onto the sidewalk from doorways and recessed building entrances and around corners. I see people on those scooters going full speed on sidewalks and if someone happens to suddenly walk out doorway they're getting hit. When people walk out onthe street they should look both ways for cars before stepping on the road. In my opinion it's ridiculous to expect people to peer out of doorway stoops and look for people on scooters barreling down the sidewalk.
- hndamien 8y ago
  Drive slower around pedestrians. The burden is on you.
  - fstuff 8y ago
    Agreed, if I go on the sidewalk I never go faster than walking speed but only if the sidewalk is clear. I'll walk it if there's people on the sidewalk.
- c22 8y ago
  Scooters barreling down the sidewalk should use the far side, away from blind doorways, and, obviously, should barrel a lot slower when there are a lot of people out.
- imgabe 8y ago
  I bike commute. I stay on the road as much as possible, but there's parts where it's impractical. So, I get on the sidewalk, go slow, and yield to pedestrians. That said, Jesus Christ people. Take out your headphones, put your phone away, and freaking pay attention to your surroundings. People wander around like they're the baby from the Popeye cartoons expecting everything else to miraculously flow around them. Forget about bikes and scooters, it's rude to other pedestrians who may be walking faster, running, or actually paying attention to what they're doing if you're meandering back and forth across the sidewalk and can't even hear someone say "Excuse me". The sidewalk is for walking, yes, but that doesn't mean it's for the exclusive use of any one individual.
tlrobinson 8y ago
> As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. Being in traffic is exceedingly dangerous, and apparently as long as someone else's life on the line you're good with it. As someone who uses electric skateboards and scooters fairly regularly, I disagree. Bicycle lanes are the most appropriate place for them. Supposedly Steve Jobs predicted the Segway would cause cities to be "redesigned". He was wrong, but I don't think he was far off. The rising popularity of light electric vehicles may actually prompt cities to build more bike lanes to accommodate them.
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  It's getting better, but a lot of places still don't have bike lanes. I'll ride on the sidewalk if I don't feel safe in the road, but I'm extra careful when I do.
  - s17n 8y ago
    So basically, you make peds feel unsafe so that you can feel safe.
    - mellabo 8y ago
      The risk of a fatality or life changing accident is much much higher for a cyclist colliding with a car, than it is for a pedestrian being hit by a bike
      - cstejerean 8y ago
        The risk may be higher but it's not insignificant. Here is an example from the UK: "The number of pedestrians fatally or seriously injured in collisions with cyclists has doubled since 2006" https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/07/number-pedestrians-fatally-seriously-injured-cyclists-has-doubled/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/07/number-pedestria...
        ZeroGravitas 8y ago
Tuxer 8y ago
I used one today for the first time, and loved them. Faster than an uber, 3$ instead of 10, environmentally responsible, and fun to ride. As long as we fine people for being assholes (riding on the sidewalks, parking in stupid places) I think they're a great step forward.
edaemon 8y ago
The problem with American cities is that we only have two spaces: the road and the sidewalk. Bike lanes are sometimes added to roads, but they're still just lanes on the road. The roads have all been built and designed for cars. Sidewalks have been built for pedestrians. Bikes, scooters, skateboards, etc. just don't fit well into either space. There's a great YouTube channel, BicycleDutch [1], that goes into some detail about the Dutch approach to thoroughfares. They almost always build three spaces: a road for cars, a path for bicycles, and a sidewalk for pedestrians. This results in a huge number of people using bicycles to get around; in Amsterdam 30% of people always commute with a bicycle and over 40% usually do. Of course, it generally wouldn't be practical for an American city to just convert all its roads to also include a separated bike path. Instead they could look for areas where a bike path could be built without costing too much, drawing political ire, or significantly interfering with current use. Railroad tracks are good opportunities. As an example, Minneapolis converted an unused railroad corridor to a separated bike path, called the Midtown Greenway [2]. As of 2016 34,000+ people used it daily [3]. Portland, OR, has converted two former railways into bike paths, the Springwater Corridor trail [4] and the new Trolley Trail [5]. We have plenty of other separated paths here as well. Where there just isn't enough horizontal space, a more radical approach would be to build an elevated bike path over a few major thoroughfares (i.e. main downtown streets) or freeways that connect commuters to other separated or multi-use paths. Xiamen, China, built an elevated cycle path -- really more of a bicycle highway -- last year [6]. Dallas [7], Phoenix [8], and Detroit [9] have all built parks over freeways that contain some mixed-use paths, though not always with transportation in mind. Ultimately bicycles/scooters/etc. don't really fit well into the current American infrastructure, but it seems like a solvable problem. 1: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC67YlPrRvsO117gFDM7UePg https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC67YlPrRvsO117gFDM7UePg 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midtown_Greenway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midtown_Greenway 3: http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@publicworks/documents/webcontent/wcmsp-197773.pdf http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@publicworks/... 4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springwater_Corridor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springwater_Corridor 5: https://ncprd.com/parks/trolley-trail https://ncprd.com/parks/trolley-trail 6: https://www.mnn.com/green-tech/transportation/blogs/china-cycleway https://www.mnn.com/green-tech/transportation/blogs/china-cy... 7: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klyde_Warren_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klyde_Warren_Park 8: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_T._Hance_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_T._Hance_Park 9: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_696 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_696
s17n 8y ago
So you're saying you don't like sharing the road with heavier, less maneuverable, and faster moving objects, so you bring your scooter/bike on the sidewalk? Makes sense.
- vkou 8y ago
  You forgot to add "that can, and do trivially kill people." Bicycles and scooters being driven on sidewalks tend to not do that.
CalRobert 8y ago
"only peds belong on sidewalks" It's worth remembering that peds (otherwise known as "people") used to be able to roam the street freely. Can't find the source now (at work) but in the 1920's a judge in New York bemoaned the then-ridiculous idea that cars would mean children could no longer play in the street, which of course they had every right to do.
mirimir 8y ago
> As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. If people have bicycles or scooters on sidewalks, they should be walking them, not riding.
bkor 8y ago
> As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", It should be pretty clear that both car lanes and pedestrian paths are both unsafe for scooters. Add a bike path, just like e.g. The Netherlands, Denmark, etc. The bike path is generally designed for up to 25-30km/h. Certain scooters and electric bikes may go above that. In Netherlands scooters and electric bikes are divided into 2, ones which can reach up to 25km/h and ones which can reach up to 45km/h (above is not allowed). This with different regulation for each. There might be a case for adding yet another special path, e.g. scooter path for traffic up to 45km/h. Way more people can travel around on a bike path than a car lane (occupies more space while often just having 1 person).
- koliber 8y ago
  Just because scooters can go that fast, it does not mean that they should be allowed to do so. I think speed limits make sense in many situations. If you ride your scooter capable for going 50km/hr that fast on a road in a 30km/hr zone, you are speeding. Perhaps the same should be true if you are riding your scooter too fast in a bike lane. It should definitely be true if you are riding your bike or scooter on a sidewalk too fast or recklessly. How fast is too fast remains to be seen.
shaki-dora 8y ago
It’s insane how we don’t even notice how much public space is devoted to cars: For a typical residential street, it’s 2/3: two lanes of traffic, two lanes for parking, vs two sidewalks. All are about the same width. That primacy of the car is what needs to change. Autonomous driving could go a long way, by allowing offside parking and increased utilization of shared cars. But even before, just inconveniencing drivers by eliminating one lane of parking would open up enough space to accommodate safe bike and scooter lanes. Next up is the wasteland of endless parking lots the US is so fond of, and that unnecessarily decreases density to maybe a third of what’s easily possible. But it’ll take far more time to heal that particular hellscape.
- maherbeg 8y ago
  Strongly agree with this! The problem for SF is that it also needs buy in from the rest of the Bay Area to continually upgrade mass transit into the city. If CalTrain had higher throughput to take more cars off the road, then replacing car lanes with bike/e-mobility lanes would be more feasible.
- wool_gather 8y ago
  Yes, absolutely! I was just saying this on another thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16934196 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16934196 There is so much space needed to accommodate the everyone-in-a-car model. The space for active use is only one part of it; where to put them when they're idle is a problem unto itself.
brandonmenc 8y ago
> As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. Ever see an elderly pedestrian get plowed into by some 200 lb kid on a skateboard? I used to live near and work on Mill Ave. in Tempe near ASU, which is a very congested pedestrian strip. It's also full of maniacs on bikes, scooters, and skateboards weaving in and around pedestrians at full speed, coming within inches the whole time. One false move and you'd get plowed. Like speed with like speed, I say.
on_and_off 8y ago
I moved to SF 6 months ago. Compared to my previous city (Paris), transportation in SF is shockingly poor. That was actually a big surprise to me. It is so much easier to plan a city built recently compared to old Europe where you have a mess of old tiny roads you can't get rid of. So I would have expected my SF commute to be easier than my Parisian one was. However, Paris has a great subway infrastructure (and public transportation in general) that SF sorely lack. Everything is centered around a car-first infrastructure which has failed to scale in order to accommodate the current traffic. I don't want to own a car and even less to commute with one. I have done it for a couple of years, that's x minutes every day where I can't do much and have to stay focused on the road. Subway/walking commute on the contrary are often pleasant and let me listen to podcasts and read articles (pocket is great for this). In the end, I bought a boosted board, it is a great commute shortener. The biggest downside is that it is pretty hard to maneuver a longboard on the very poor SF streets. Some are in great shape, but most of them around SOMA are pretty bad when you use a skate. It would be easier if my skate had bigger wheels, like scooters have. It looks like a great alternative, I would love to see more of these on US streets. PS.: I think it would be hard to share the sidewalk though. Unless it is very large, like on the embarcadero, there it is not an issue. The problem with sharing the sidewalk is that the usual eskate/scooter speed is way too fast to share the sidewalk. Sooner or later somebody will exit a building just as you pass by and you are both going to get hurt. We either need extra large sidewalks with a space reserved to small vehicles; or streets with protected bike lanes. Streets without a bike lane are also pretty dangerous on this kind of vehicle. I am always on my guard : if I fall, I fall in the middle of the traffic. Also, bike lanes are poorly engineered for scooter and especially skates. They have tiny wheels compared to bikes. So you have to avoid potholes, manholes, and all kind of obstacles. Even the paint of the bike lane is an obstacle; it is often very slippery. Some better civil engineering is needed here.
agumonkey 8y ago
Related: some before and after in the netherlands https://twitter.com/schlijper/status/987269913311137797 https://twitter.com/schlijper/status/987269913311137797 I do like roads a bit, when it's where kids can play and also have some cars at times. But the green/bike version has a lot to offer. It's relaxing just by looking at it.

JoeAltmaier 8y ago

I have more sympathy for pedestrians. They go around 2-3mph. Auto traffic around 25-50. Bikes and scooters are way closer to cars than pedestrians. So, its a matter of risking the safety of cyclist, or pedestrians. No clear win there I can see.

seanp2k2 8y ago
Sidewalks also have two-way traffic whereas the bike lane should be only one direction (which is also the direction of car traffic).
randyrand 8y ago
walking 3-4, scooter 10-15, cars 25-60. each is about 3x more than the previous. But it's a stupid comparison for safety. Colliding with a scooter will rarely be fatal, regardless of the 3x. But cyclist often get killed.
- seanp2k2 8y ago
  See also: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/535/why-does-kinetic-energy-increase-quadratically-not-linearly-with-speed https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/535/why-does-kin... There's a LOT more energy being transferred into whatever the car hits both because it's going much faster and because it's much heavier.
- fiter 8y ago
  The chance of collision should also be considered. Since intersection collisions are the same or worse for riding a bicycle on the sidewalk, we should consider overtaking while there is insufficient space which seems like it would be a strong function of extra space on either the road or the sidewalk and relative speeds. Im not sure why you listed 60 as I'm not really aware of any roads with such a limit that also reasonably expect bicycle traffic.
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    All the roads around my house have a 55 limit. If I didn't bike on them I wouldn't bike at all.
    - fiter 8y ago
      Wow. Is this Arizona?
      - jessaustin 8y ago
        Missouri
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  Arguing "Sure bikes will hit you, but it will rarely be fatal!" is not terribly convincing. Its reasonable for pedestrians to want bikes off the sidewalk. The chance of collision is far greater. I know its a hard statistic for bikes to swallow. There seems to be no winning for them. But that's my whole point.
leohutson 8y ago
This is a completely irrational way to look at it. The risk of a pedestrian fatality posed by a collision with a car travelling 30kmh is closer to the risk from a car going 5kmh than that of a car going 50kmh. Look at the chart here: http://www.victoriawalks.org.au/safe_speed/ http://www.victoriawalks.org.au/safe_speed/ The risk from speed is non-linear. Risk the pedestrians in speed zone greater than 30kmh, because risk of fatal injury is far lower.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  Don't know many bikes in my community that go 5mph. They're going 20, commuting miles to work. Anyway, the pedestrians don't risk either now. So saying "Folks should be comfortable adding a reasonable risk of death, since it could be far worse!" is not compelling.

justboxing 8y ago

> As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that Nothing self-righteous about that. Sidewalks are -- as the name itself suggests - meant for WALKING on the SIDE of the road, not for riding scooters and other vehicles which pose a danger to other people walking. Only exception being people on wheelchairs, but they aren't driving at break-neck speeds like an electric scooter rider, or a bicyclist.

FooHentai 8y ago
If we're gonna play that silly game, what about roads, from the old English rād meaning 'journey on horseback'.
- gamblor956 8y ago
  Why is the Old English meaning of the precursor word relevant? The modern word is road and it means thoroughfare.
  - FooHentai 8y ago
    Right. It's almost like the name of something has no bearing on what the thing could be used for.
    - c22 8y ago
      I always get a kick out of manipulating widgets on my bank's online "dashboard".
    - gamblor956 8y ago
      In the case of sidewalk vs rad vs road, you're making the wrong argument. We do not have "rads" anymore, we have "roads." "Road" is derived from "rad" but they are two different words with different meanings. A sidewalk is a walking area on the side of a road, and that meaning of the word has not changed. Bikes, for example, or prohibited from sidewalks in most Western jurisdictions (lack of enforcement notwithstanding), and essentially all Western jurisdictions prohibit motorized vehicles from sidewalks. In both cases, it is because the sidewalks are meant for "pedestrians", i.e., people walking.

fstuff 8y ago

>As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. I strongly disagree with this. I've owned an electric scooter for over a year now and I learned real fast that it's super dangerous to ride on the sidewalk. The problem with pedestrians is that they are not looking out for scooters. People will wander into your path and depending on how fast you're going you may collide. Also you can't see people walking out onto the sidewalk from doorways and recessed building entrances and around corners. I see people on those scooters going full speed on sidewalks and if someone happens to suddenly walk out doorway they're getting hit. When people walk out onthe street they should look both ways for cars before stepping on the road. In my opinion it's ridiculous to expect people to peer out of doorway stoops and look for people on scooters barreling down the sidewalk.

hndamien 8y ago
Drive slower around pedestrians. The burden is on you.
- fstuff 8y ago
  Agreed, if I go on the sidewalk I never go faster than walking speed but only if the sidewalk is clear. I'll walk it if there's people on the sidewalk.
c22 8y ago
Scooters barreling down the sidewalk should use the far side, away from blind doorways, and, obviously, should barrel a lot slower when there are a lot of people out.
imgabe 8y ago
I bike commute. I stay on the road as much as possible, but there's parts where it's impractical. So, I get on the sidewalk, go slow, and yield to pedestrians. That said, Jesus Christ people. Take out your headphones, put your phone away, and freaking pay attention to your surroundings. People wander around like they're the baby from the Popeye cartoons expecting everything else to miraculously flow around them. Forget about bikes and scooters, it's rude to other pedestrians who may be walking faster, running, or actually paying attention to what they're doing if you're meandering back and forth across the sidewalk and can't even hear someone say "Excuse me". The sidewalk is for walking, yes, but that doesn't mean it's for the exclusive use of any one individual.

tlrobinson 8y ago

> As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. Being in traffic is exceedingly dangerous, and apparently as long as someone else's life on the line you're good with it. As someone who uses electric skateboards and scooters fairly regularly, I disagree. Bicycle lanes are the most appropriate place for them. Supposedly Steve Jobs predicted the Segway would cause cities to be "redesigned". He was wrong, but I don't think he was far off. The rising popularity of light electric vehicles may actually prompt cities to build more bike lanes to accommodate them.

PhasmaFelis 8y ago
It's getting better, but a lot of places still don't have bike lanes. I'll ride on the sidewalk if I don't feel safe in the road, but I'm extra careful when I do.
- s17n 8y ago
  So basically, you make peds feel unsafe so that you can feel safe.
  - mellabo 8y ago
    The risk of a fatality or life changing accident is much much higher for a cyclist colliding with a car, than it is for a pedestrian being hit by a bike
    - cstejerean 8y ago
      The risk may be higher but it's not insignificant. Here is an example from the UK: "The number of pedestrians fatally or seriously injured in collisions with cyclists has doubled since 2006" https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/07/number-pedestrians-fatally-seriously-injured-cyclists-has-doubled/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/07/number-pedestria...
      - ZeroGravitas 8y ago

Tuxer 8y ago

I used one today for the first time, and loved them. Faster than an uber, 3$ instead of 10, environmentally responsible, and fun to ride. As long as we fine people for being assholes (riding on the sidewalks, parking in stupid places) I think they're a great step forward.

edaemon 8y ago

The problem with American cities is that we only have two spaces: the road and the sidewalk. Bike lanes are sometimes added to roads, but they're still just lanes on the road. The roads have all been built and designed for cars. Sidewalks have been built for pedestrians. Bikes, scooters, skateboards, etc. just don't fit well into either space. There's a great YouTube channel, BicycleDutch [1], that goes into some detail about the Dutch approach to thoroughfares. They almost always build three spaces: a road for cars, a path for bicycles, and a sidewalk for pedestrians. This results in a huge number of people using bicycles to get around; in Amsterdam 30% of people always commute with a bicycle and over 40% usually do. Of course, it generally wouldn't be practical for an American city to just convert all its roads to also include a separated bike path. Instead they could look for areas where a bike path could be built without costing too much, drawing political ire, or significantly interfering with current use. Railroad tracks are good opportunities. As an example, Minneapolis converted an unused railroad corridor to a separated bike path, called the Midtown Greenway [2]. As of 2016 34,000+ people used it daily [3]. Portland, OR, has converted two former railways into bike paths, the Springwater Corridor trail [4] and the new Trolley Trail [5]. We have plenty of other separated paths here as well. Where there just isn't enough horizontal space, a more radical approach would be to build an elevated bike path over a few major thoroughfares (i.e. main downtown streets) or freeways that connect commuters to other separated or multi-use paths. Xiamen, China, built an elevated cycle path -- really more of a bicycle highway -- last year [6]. Dallas [7], Phoenix [8], and Detroit [9] have all built parks over freeways that contain some mixed-use paths, though not always with transportation in mind. Ultimately bicycles/scooters/etc. don't really fit well into the current American infrastructure, but it seems like a solvable problem. 1: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC67YlPrRvsO117gFDM7UePg https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC67YlPrRvsO117gFDM7UePg 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midtown_Greenway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midtown_Greenway 3: http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@publicworks/documents/webcontent/wcmsp-197773.pdf http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@publicworks/... 4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springwater_Corridor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springwater_Corridor 5: https://ncprd.com/parks/trolley-trail https://ncprd.com/parks/trolley-trail 6: https://www.mnn.com/green-tech/transportation/blogs/china-cycleway https://www.mnn.com/green-tech/transportation/blogs/china-cy... 7: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klyde_Warren_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klyde_Warren_Park 8: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_T._Hance_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_T._Hance_Park 9: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_696 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_696

s17n 8y ago

So you're saying you don't like sharing the road with heavier, less maneuverable, and faster moving objects, so you bring your scooter/bike on the sidewalk? Makes sense.

vkou 8y ago
You forgot to add "that can, and do trivially kill people." Bicycles and scooters being driven on sidewalks tend to not do that.

CalRobert 8y ago

"only peds belong on sidewalks" It's worth remembering that peds (otherwise known as "people") used to be able to roam the street freely. Can't find the source now (at work) but in the 1920's a judge in New York bemoaned the then-ridiculous idea that cars would mean children could no longer play in the street, which of course they had every right to do.

mirimir 8y ago

> As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. If people have bicycles or scooters on sidewalks, they should be walking them, not riding.

bkor 8y ago

> As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", It should be pretty clear that both car lanes and pedestrian paths are both unsafe for scooters. Add a bike path, just like e.g. The Netherlands, Denmark, etc. The bike path is generally designed for up to 25-30km/h. Certain scooters and electric bikes may go above that. In Netherlands scooters and electric bikes are divided into 2, ones which can reach up to 25km/h and ones which can reach up to 45km/h (above is not allowed). This with different regulation for each. There might be a case for adding yet another special path, e.g. scooter path for traffic up to 45km/h. Way more people can travel around on a bike path than a car lane (occupies more space while often just having 1 person).

koliber 8y ago
Just because scooters can go that fast, it does not mean that they should be allowed to do so. I think speed limits make sense in many situations. If you ride your scooter capable for going 50km/hr that fast on a road in a 30km/hr zone, you are speeding. Perhaps the same should be true if you are riding your scooter too fast in a bike lane. It should definitely be true if you are riding your bike or scooter on a sidewalk too fast or recklessly. How fast is too fast remains to be seen.

shaki-dora 8y ago

It’s insane how we don’t even notice how much public space is devoted to cars: For a typical residential street, it’s 2/3: two lanes of traffic, two lanes for parking, vs two sidewalks. All are about the same width. That primacy of the car is what needs to change. Autonomous driving could go a long way, by allowing offside parking and increased utilization of shared cars. But even before, just inconveniencing drivers by eliminating one lane of parking would open up enough space to accommodate safe bike and scooter lanes. Next up is the wasteland of endless parking lots the US is so fond of, and that unnecessarily decreases density to maybe a third of what’s easily possible. But it’ll take far more time to heal that particular hellscape.

maherbeg 8y ago
Strongly agree with this! The problem for SF is that it also needs buy in from the rest of the Bay Area to continually upgrade mass transit into the city. If CalTrain had higher throughput to take more cars off the road, then replacing car lanes with bike/e-mobility lanes would be more feasible.
wool_gather 8y ago
Yes, absolutely! I was just saying this on another thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16934196 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16934196 There is so much space needed to accommodate the everyone-in-a-car model. The space for active use is only one part of it; where to put them when they're idle is a problem unto itself.

brandonmenc 8y ago

> As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. Ever see an elderly pedestrian get plowed into by some 200 lb kid on a skateboard? I used to live near and work on Mill Ave. in Tempe near ASU, which is a very congested pedestrian strip. It's also full of maniacs on bikes, scooters, and skateboards weaving in and around pedestrians at full speed, coming within inches the whole time. One false move and you'd get plowed. Like speed with like speed, I say.

on_and_off 8y ago

I moved to SF 6 months ago. Compared to my previous city (Paris), transportation in SF is shockingly poor. That was actually a big surprise to me. It is so much easier to plan a city built recently compared to old Europe where you have a mess of old tiny roads you can't get rid of. So I would have expected my SF commute to be easier than my Parisian one was. However, Paris has a great subway infrastructure (and public transportation in general) that SF sorely lack. Everything is centered around a car-first infrastructure which has failed to scale in order to accommodate the current traffic. I don't want to own a car and even less to commute with one. I have done it for a couple of years, that's x minutes every day where I can't do much and have to stay focused on the road. Subway/walking commute on the contrary are often pleasant and let me listen to podcasts and read articles (pocket is great for this). In the end, I bought a boosted board, it is a great commute shortener. The biggest downside is that it is pretty hard to maneuver a longboard on the very poor SF streets. Some are in great shape, but most of them around SOMA are pretty bad when you use a skate. It would be easier if my skate had bigger wheels, like scooters have. It looks like a great alternative, I would love to see more of these on US streets. PS.: I think it would be hard to share the sidewalk though. Unless it is very large, like on the embarcadero, there it is not an issue. The problem with sharing the sidewalk is that the usual eskate/scooter speed is way too fast to share the sidewalk. Sooner or later somebody will exit a building just as you pass by and you are both going to get hurt. We either need extra large sidewalks with a space reserved to small vehicles; or streets with protected bike lanes. Streets without a bike lane are also pretty dangerous on this kind of vehicle. I am always on my guard : if I fall, I fall in the middle of the traffic. Also, bike lanes are poorly engineered for scooter and especially skates. They have tiny wheels compared to bikes. So you have to avoid potholes, manholes, and all kind of obstacles. Even the paint of the bike lane is an obstacle; it is often very slippery. Some better civil engineering is needed here.

agumonkey 8y ago

Related: some before and after in the netherlands https://twitter.com/schlijper/status/987269913311137797 https://twitter.com/schlijper/status/987269913311137797 I do like roads a bit, when it's where kids can play and also have some cars at times. But the green/bike version has a lot to offer. It's relaxing just by looking at it.