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Yep. I've considered many times that Ethereum went down one path of evolution from Bitcoin, which is get more and more complicated. The problems with certain su

Yep. I've considered many times that Ethereum went down one path of evolution from Bitcoin, which is get more and more complicated. The problems with certain subsystems (the scripting language for example) have been discussed at length on HN, knowing how hard it is to modify complex systems that only get more complicated, I doubt they'll ever fix these issues, they'll be battling them indefinitely. That's a real problem considering you can never really trust Ethereum and the entire thing is predicated on trust. And what does all this complexity buy? Cryptokitties. We sure this is a worthy tradeoff? Would they Eth guys even be able to recognize this considering what's invested personally and monetarily? There's plenty of suckers, so I'm sure the "next year" kicking the can down the road cycle can go on as long as it's needed, but I'm interested to see if we ever get something of value out of it. The other evolutionary route interests me, but I'm too busy, lazy, ignorant, and disturbed by the entire space to test it out. Maybe some day.

fastball 8y ago
I guess you aren't familiar with MakerDAO and DAI. etheraffle.com also seems like a relatively good use case for a ÐApp. In fact there are thousands of good use cases. I don't think you're familiar enough with the space to be providing meaningful criticism. Your reductio ad absurdum to "just cryptokitties" is fairly telling.
- aaron-lebo 8y ago
  I've been observing the space since before Eth launched. If you believe that raffles are an example of useful systems, then we'll have to disagree. In fact there are thousands of good use cases. If there are, then we'll surely see them. You're providing more of what I'm talking about - it's always next year, always coming, but the mainstream adoption is nascent.
  - mst 8y ago
    While I suspect that in the long run blockchains will absolutely end up finding some niches where they're persistently used, I do agree that a lot of the broader claims remind me a lot of "next year will be the year of linux on the desktop".
    - kirillseva 8y ago
      Fast forward to 2018, and we have Windows Subsystem for Linux, and a very popular BSD in silver aluminum cases made by a fruit company, dominate the desktop market. You could say that the year of linux on desktop is today (in some perverse modified form, but nonetheless).
      - mst 8y ago
        That's actually a really good point (especially if one includes Android) - but "20 years later than we hoped, in a completely different form than expected" is significantly what I was trying to handwave at.
  - ericb 8y ago
    The web was nearly useless and mainly business card style web pages from 94-98 even though the building blocks were available.
    - Sangermaine 8y ago
      1. The web was already used for all sorts of things in that period. Geocities was a wonderful open world; I have fond memories of Simpsons and X-Files fan webrings. Not to mention services like ebay, Amazon, or Craigslist arose during that period. 2. Even if we accept your statement as true, the world wide web became generally available in 1991. Blockchain technology has now been around for a decade. The web certainly showed its practical usefulness in its first 10 years, yet blockchain remains largely in the realm of hype.
      - fastball 8y ago
        "Blockchain technology" is a misnomer because different projects require different technologies and concepts. Ethereum was the first blockchain with smart contracts and it only went live in July 2015...
        Sangermaine 8y ago
        And was immediately and irredeemably invalidated in May 2016 with the DAO fiasco, yes.
        kirillseva 8y ago
        Ethereum Classic lives on, feel free to support it with money/code if you feel so strongly about immutability at all costs
      - nrhk 8y ago
        Yea but where was the web in 1981 or Arpanet in 1969. Bitcoin was just an idea in 2008, didn't gain any real significance until 2013 where it really started to enter mainstream consciousness. If we want to compare it to the web we're still far away from 1991 in terms of tech.
  - fastball 8y ago
    Any comment on MakerDAO + DAI[1]? I think it's an incredible project / feat of engineering and would be interested to hear how you think it's just a toy that doesn't serve a good purpose. Whether or not you "believe" raffles/lotteries to be a useful system does not change the fact that it was a system with a $280BN market cap in 2015. Lotteries on a blockchain with smart contracts solve three problems with traditional lotteries: transparency (provable fairness), easy and secure participation, easy and secure disbursement. We'll surely see them. Yes! You can see them right now. There are thousands of DApps, at different stages of development[2]. 1: https://makerdao.com/ https://makerdao.com/ 2: https://www.stateofthedapps.com/ https://www.stateofthedapps.com/
    - aaron-lebo 8y ago
      It's another instrument (like lotteries) whose main value is to make money for the founders. That has a use, yes, but if you're outside of that system I'm not sure the mainstream value is that great. I can tell you that the team is the least diverse (not just race/gender but in age/possible life experience) I've ever seen, which doesn't bode well. How different can their perspectives be? https://makerdao.com/team/ https://makerdao.com/team/ The vast majority of those apps are cheap moneymaking schemes. Again, they have a place, but I'll very much take a wait and see approach, which I believe is realistic and more than warranted.
      - chamza 8y ago
        Dai is a stable cryptocurrency, not a speculative money making scheme, since it's purpose is to be stable. A decentralized stablecoin is an enormous use case.
      - tuesdayrain 8y ago
        I'm not seeing why race/gender/age are relevant. These are all superficially diverse things that don't actually say anything about diversity of perspectives, unless you believe that people who belong to the same group also have similar thoughts.
    - s73v3r_ 8y ago
stale2002 8y ago
EXACTLY this. I have yet to see any good use case for smart contracts, except for, of course, launching your own speculative asset. I just want to see a real use case that has nothing to do with launching more tokens.

fastball 8y ago

I guess you aren't familiar with MakerDAO and DAI. etheraffle.com also seems like a relatively good use case for a ÐApp. In fact there are thousands of good use cases. I don't think you're familiar enough with the space to be providing meaningful criticism. Your reductio ad absurdum to "just cryptokitties" is fairly telling.

aaron-lebo 8y ago
I've been observing the space since before Eth launched. If you believe that raffles are an example of useful systems, then we'll have to disagree. In fact there are thousands of good use cases. If there are, then we'll surely see them. You're providing more of what I'm talking about - it's always next year, always coming, but the mainstream adoption is nascent.
- mst 8y ago
  While I suspect that in the long run blockchains will absolutely end up finding some niches where they're persistently used, I do agree that a lot of the broader claims remind me a lot of "next year will be the year of linux on the desktop".
  - kirillseva 8y ago
    Fast forward to 2018, and we have Windows Subsystem for Linux, and a very popular BSD in silver aluminum cases made by a fruit company, dominate the desktop market. You could say that the year of linux on desktop is today (in some perverse modified form, but nonetheless).
    - mst 8y ago
      That's actually a really good point (especially if one includes Android) - but "20 years later than we hoped, in a completely different form than expected" is significantly what I was trying to handwave at.
- ericb 8y ago
  The web was nearly useless and mainly business card style web pages from 94-98 even though the building blocks were available.
  - Sangermaine 8y ago
    1. The web was already used for all sorts of things in that period. Geocities was a wonderful open world; I have fond memories of Simpsons and X-Files fan webrings. Not to mention services like ebay, Amazon, or Craigslist arose during that period. 2. Even if we accept your statement as true, the world wide web became generally available in 1991. Blockchain technology has now been around for a decade. The web certainly showed its practical usefulness in its first 10 years, yet blockchain remains largely in the realm of hype.
    - fastball 8y ago
      "Blockchain technology" is a misnomer because different projects require different technologies and concepts. Ethereum was the first blockchain with smart contracts and it only went live in July 2015...
      - Sangermaine 8y ago
        And was immediately and irredeemably invalidated in May 2016 with the DAO fiasco, yes.
        kirillseva 8y ago
        Ethereum Classic lives on, feel free to support it with money/code if you feel so strongly about immutability at all costs
    - nrhk 8y ago
      Yea but where was the web in 1981 or Arpanet in 1969. Bitcoin was just an idea in 2008, didn't gain any real significance until 2013 where it really started to enter mainstream consciousness. If we want to compare it to the web we're still far away from 1991 in terms of tech.
- fastball 8y ago
  Any comment on MakerDAO + DAI[1]? I think it's an incredible project / feat of engineering and would be interested to hear how you think it's just a toy that doesn't serve a good purpose. Whether or not you "believe" raffles/lotteries to be a useful system does not change the fact that it was a system with a $280BN market cap in 2015. Lotteries on a blockchain with smart contracts solve three problems with traditional lotteries: transparency (provable fairness), easy and secure participation, easy and secure disbursement. We'll surely see them. Yes! You can see them right now. There are thousands of DApps, at different stages of development[2]. 1: https://makerdao.com/ https://makerdao.com/ 2: https://www.stateofthedapps.com/ https://www.stateofthedapps.com/
  - aaron-lebo 8y ago
    It's another instrument (like lotteries) whose main value is to make money for the founders. That has a use, yes, but if you're outside of that system I'm not sure the mainstream value is that great. I can tell you that the team is the least diverse (not just race/gender but in age/possible life experience) I've ever seen, which doesn't bode well. How different can their perspectives be? https://makerdao.com/team/ https://makerdao.com/team/ The vast majority of those apps are cheap moneymaking schemes. Again, they have a place, but I'll very much take a wait and see approach, which I believe is realistic and more than warranted.
    - chamza 8y ago
      Dai is a stable cryptocurrency, not a speculative money making scheme, since it's purpose is to be stable. A decentralized stablecoin is an enormous use case.
    - tuesdayrain 8y ago
      I'm not seeing why race/gender/age are relevant. These are all superficially diverse things that don't actually say anything about diversity of perspectives, unless you believe that people who belong to the same group also have similar thoughts.
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago

stale2002 8y ago

EXACTLY this. I have yet to see any good use case for smart contracts, except for, of course, launching your own speculative asset. I just want to see a real use case that has nothing to do with launching more tokens.