9 ms·

Incel, the misogynist ideology that inspired the deadly Toronto attack

40 points by malmaud 8y ago

justaman 8y ago
Yeah they might be terrorists, but they are psychologically challenged first and foremost.
- frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
  I don't see what makes 'incels' uniquely psychologically challenged in a way that an ISIS suicide bomber isn't. They don't seem that different from any other kind of terrorist tbh.
  - brighteyes 8y ago
    On the one hand, I agree that most ISIS and other suicide bombers are also mentally ill. A sane, happy person does not just go blow up or shoot a bunch of people. Still, there are differences. The particular terrorist here was described by people as having a clear developmental or psychological impairment. Autism and anxiety disorders are common among incels. While the mental illnesses common among suicide bombers are probably different on average.
    - iron0013 8y ago
      How so? I'm not seeing a difference.
    - WalterSear 8y ago
      https://www.google.com/search?q=human+devastation+syndrome https://www.google.com/search?q=human+devastation+syndrome
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    What’s their political goal? Suicide bombers are distressed indeed they are conditioned in a very methodical way to do what they do which is why they are almost never a “lone wolf” type of an attacker. They are groomed then are run through a regime of psychological reconditioning until they can blow themselves up. Arguably they are a victim while their puppet masters are the true terrorists.
    - frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
      Well we can look at this guy's last post. Private (Recruit) Minassian Infantry 00010, wishing to speak to Sgt 4chan please. C23249161. The Incel Rebellion has already begun! We will overthrow all the Chads and Stacys! All hail the Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger So the message is a bit over the top for humor (I think) but it still expresses similarities with other terrorists. He obviously belongs to a community which has conditioned his way of thinking. Now I'll grant that the way the incel community affected his thinking wasn't methodical, but it was grooming, just that the 'groomer' isn't one person but actually a whole bunch of people playing bit parts. It doesn't even seem that he thinks of himself as a lone wolf as we traditionally think about it. He expresses solidarity three different times in that tiny post: (1) a soldier in part of an army, (2) part of a rebellion/"we", (3) solidarity with Elliot Rodger. What the explicit political goal is here I'm not exactly sure but I don't think I'd be out of line in saying that this guy wants Western gender relations to be more accommodative to people like himself and that's why he did this. He seems like a standard terrorist to me, not really that distinguished from a suicide bomber.
      - dogma1138 8y ago
        Suicide bombers are purposefully created by a methodical process. They are often "recommended" to a recruiter and by recommended I mean sold off more often than not by a family member, the 'Uncle' on the "father's side" was the most common one in the west bank. Then they are groomed showered with gifts, money, girls drugs w/e and that is when the fun part starts a regime of calculated psychological and physical abuse interrupted by moments of the same grooming they were showered with just a few weeks or months ago, religious teachings are very seldom used often only with "problematic" subjects towards the very end. Suicide bombers are unique in a way that they have had every impulse control reprogrammed for them to be able to take their own life without any gratification and without their fight or flight instinct taking over. This is very different to something that one would might consider a "suicide mission" as in a mission that has a very slim chance of success because you are always able to convince yourself that you'll beat the odds, you can't beat the odds when you are wearing a suicide vest. Unlike these other "suicide missions" e.g. grabbing a few AK-47's and going to a French nightclub there is no satisfaction or gratification you don't see the outcome of your actions, you don't feel the adrenaline rush and you don't then fight for your life when the authorities show up fueled by adrenaline and primal instincts. A suicide bomber is someone that needs to be able to go on a mission they know they won't ever come back from, knowing that they would never be able to see the outcome of their actions they would never know if they were successful there is literally zero joy (and yes I understand how morbid it might sound but think about it from a psychological point of view) in it they never get their hero moment because their hero moment ends before they can experience it. Now lone wolf and other non-suicide attackers are much more varied it's much easier to convince some idiots to go and shoot up a place in a hold my beer type of fashion because they always can convince themselves they'll win, they won't die they'll become heroes and they can visualize themselves doing that and it's one heck of a power trip. And again I'm sorry for the morbidity but just imagine yourself gunning down people vs blowing yourself up, heck don't imagine it we have enough video games that play out that power fantasy (this isn't an argument against gaming or violent gaming) but there aren't as many games where you play the suicide bomber or the game mechanic equivalent of it because knowing you are going to always explode/die regardless of how good you are isn't going to be fun and there are zero games that allow you to be the game mechanic equivalent of a suicide bombers that simply end to black the moment you press the button and don't show you the score no one would play that game and in real life that barrier is considerably harder to overcome. So yeah while you may be able to classify that guy as a terrorist calling him a suicide bomber isn't correct, to me it feels more like the type of a distressed assailant that a few decades ago would be going postal or doing suicide by cop I don't think that he had any real political ideology behind him and neither did the trolls on those forums, but it could be also simply because the other possibility is too frightening to accept.
Someone1234 8y ago
> Beyond their shared frustration with not having sex, the incel community is not monolithic. Many of them are simply sad and lonely men, suffering from extreme social anxiety or deep depression. Seems like most extremist communities can be described similarly. You have people in a very bad place, and then you expose them to an ideology where they're part of the "in" group instead of feeling like an outsider, effectively forming a social connection but in a profoundly negative way. I think we, as a species, have always benefited from being part of a small community, be it a village, religion, or social club. Seems like large urban settings are socially isolating people, even if they're technically surrounded by people. When I found myself in a similar place in my life, I found a community in WoW (as many others have), that too is unhealthy just to a lower degree.
- LyndsySimon 8y ago
  > When I found myself in a similar place in my life, I found a community in WoW (as many others have), that too is unhealthy just to a lower degree. Ditto, though mine was due to depression and my subsequent withdrawal from pretty much everything else around me. I immersed myself in EverQuest and it quickly got to the point where I feel like it "ate my life".
- jbob2000 8y ago
  I feel like this is a little different, though. Social dynamics in the West are shifting. In the past, men had a fairly good understanding of how to approach and date women, but nowadays, its not so cut and dry. I'm not arguing that we need to regress to the 1950s, part of this transition is getting rid of the awful treatment of women, but the rapid social change is leaving some people out in the cold. There is a lesser movement that might be under the umbrella of Incel called MGTOW (Men going their own way). It rejects matrimony, seeing it as wholly beneficial to women, and pushes men to create independence from women. These movements are a response by men who are lost in the murky waters of social change. On the one hand, MGTOW is saying "fuck it, we don't want to deal with you", whereas Incels are saying "fuck you, deal with me".
jenkstom 8y ago
Does this mean that if we legalize prostitution the incels will stop killing people? Seems reasonable and completely improbable that such a simple solution would ever be implemented.
- DanBC 8y ago
  If they're going to kill people you'd think the illegality of prostitution wouldn't be an impediment.
  - hirundo 8y ago
    If their rage is a symptom of lackanookie then nookie may calm them. Hopefully legalizing it will be sufficient and we don't have to subsidize it.
    - DanBC 8y ago
      But sex is available to them. The problem isn't with "lack of sex", it's with "lack of puppets to fulfil their weird fantasies of what they think a woman is, vs what a woman actually is".
      - hirundo 8y ago
        You can't banish scarcity by denying it. Fertile females have always been scarce. And that's a good thing, as it's a primary driver of evolution. Frustrated men will always be with us and will continue to take their pain out on everyone around them, sometimes tragically. This dynamic is a major force in history, e.g. incentivising more warfare by polygamist cultures. Sexbots have the potential to change this, at an existential risk to our species. Here's hoping that your own bubble of plentiful sexual partners is never burst.
- smacktoward 8y ago
  Then they will just rebase their misplaced sense of grievance onto them having to pay for sex while the "Chads" get it for free.
johnny313 8y ago
Disappointing that this was flagged, seems like an interesting topic for the HN community.

40 points by malmaud 8y ago

justaman 8y ago

Yeah they might be terrorists, but they are psychologically challenged first and foremost.

frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
I don't see what makes 'incels' uniquely psychologically challenged in a way that an ISIS suicide bomber isn't. They don't seem that different from any other kind of terrorist tbh.
- brighteyes 8y ago
  On the one hand, I agree that most ISIS and other suicide bombers are also mentally ill. A sane, happy person does not just go blow up or shoot a bunch of people. Still, there are differences. The particular terrorist here was described by people as having a clear developmental or psychological impairment. Autism and anxiety disorders are common among incels. While the mental illnesses common among suicide bombers are probably different on average.
  - iron0013 8y ago
    How so? I'm not seeing a difference.
  - WalterSear 8y ago
    https://www.google.com/search?q=human+devastation+syndrome https://www.google.com/search?q=human+devastation+syndrome
- dogma1138 8y ago
  What’s their political goal? Suicide bombers are distressed indeed they are conditioned in a very methodical way to do what they do which is why they are almost never a “lone wolf” type of an attacker. They are groomed then are run through a regime of psychological reconditioning until they can blow themselves up. Arguably they are a victim while their puppet masters are the true terrorists.
  - frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
    Well we can look at this guy's last post. Private (Recruit) Minassian Infantry 00010, wishing to speak to Sgt 4chan please. C23249161. The Incel Rebellion has already begun! We will overthrow all the Chads and Stacys! All hail the Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger So the message is a bit over the top for humor (I think) but it still expresses similarities with other terrorists. He obviously belongs to a community which has conditioned his way of thinking. Now I'll grant that the way the incel community affected his thinking wasn't methodical, but it was grooming, just that the 'groomer' isn't one person but actually a whole bunch of people playing bit parts. It doesn't even seem that he thinks of himself as a lone wolf as we traditionally think about it. He expresses solidarity three different times in that tiny post: (1) a soldier in part of an army, (2) part of a rebellion/"we", (3) solidarity with Elliot Rodger. What the explicit political goal is here I'm not exactly sure but I don't think I'd be out of line in saying that this guy wants Western gender relations to be more accommodative to people like himself and that's why he did this. He seems like a standard terrorist to me, not really that distinguished from a suicide bomber.
    - dogma1138 8y ago
      Suicide bombers are purposefully created by a methodical process. They are often "recommended" to a recruiter and by recommended I mean sold off more often than not by a family member, the 'Uncle' on the "father's side" was the most common one in the west bank. Then they are groomed showered with gifts, money, girls drugs w/e and that is when the fun part starts a regime of calculated psychological and physical abuse interrupted by moments of the same grooming they were showered with just a few weeks or months ago, religious teachings are very seldom used often only with "problematic" subjects towards the very end. Suicide bombers are unique in a way that they have had every impulse control reprogrammed for them to be able to take their own life without any gratification and without their fight or flight instinct taking over. This is very different to something that one would might consider a "suicide mission" as in a mission that has a very slim chance of success because you are always able to convince yourself that you'll beat the odds, you can't beat the odds when you are wearing a suicide vest. Unlike these other "suicide missions" e.g. grabbing a few AK-47's and going to a French nightclub there is no satisfaction or gratification you don't see the outcome of your actions, you don't feel the adrenaline rush and you don't then fight for your life when the authorities show up fueled by adrenaline and primal instincts. A suicide bomber is someone that needs to be able to go on a mission they know they won't ever come back from, knowing that they would never be able to see the outcome of their actions they would never know if they were successful there is literally zero joy (and yes I understand how morbid it might sound but think about it from a psychological point of view) in it they never get their hero moment because their hero moment ends before they can experience it. Now lone wolf and other non-suicide attackers are much more varied it's much easier to convince some idiots to go and shoot up a place in a hold my beer type of fashion because they always can convince themselves they'll win, they won't die they'll become heroes and they can visualize themselves doing that and it's one heck of a power trip. And again I'm sorry for the morbidity but just imagine yourself gunning down people vs blowing yourself up, heck don't imagine it we have enough video games that play out that power fantasy (this isn't an argument against gaming or violent gaming) but there aren't as many games where you play the suicide bomber or the game mechanic equivalent of it because knowing you are going to always explode/die regardless of how good you are isn't going to be fun and there are zero games that allow you to be the game mechanic equivalent of a suicide bombers that simply end to black the moment you press the button and don't show you the score no one would play that game and in real life that barrier is considerably harder to overcome. So yeah while you may be able to classify that guy as a terrorist calling him a suicide bomber isn't correct, to me it feels more like the type of a distressed assailant that a few decades ago would be going postal or doing suicide by cop I don't think that he had any real political ideology behind him and neither did the trolls on those forums, but it could be also simply because the other possibility is too frightening to accept.

Someone1234 8y ago

> Beyond their shared frustration with not having sex, the incel community is not monolithic. Many of them are simply sad and lonely men, suffering from extreme social anxiety or deep depression. Seems like most extremist communities can be described similarly. You have people in a very bad place, and then you expose them to an ideology where they're part of the "in" group instead of feeling like an outsider, effectively forming a social connection but in a profoundly negative way. I think we, as a species, have always benefited from being part of a small community, be it a village, religion, or social club. Seems like large urban settings are socially isolating people, even if they're technically surrounded by people. When I found myself in a similar place in my life, I found a community in WoW (as many others have), that too is unhealthy just to a lower degree.

LyndsySimon 8y ago
> When I found myself in a similar place in my life, I found a community in WoW (as many others have), that too is unhealthy just to a lower degree. Ditto, though mine was due to depression and my subsequent withdrawal from pretty much everything else around me. I immersed myself in EverQuest and it quickly got to the point where I feel like it "ate my life".
jbob2000 8y ago
I feel like this is a little different, though. Social dynamics in the West are shifting. In the past, men had a fairly good understanding of how to approach and date women, but nowadays, its not so cut and dry. I'm not arguing that we need to regress to the 1950s, part of this transition is getting rid of the awful treatment of women, but the rapid social change is leaving some people out in the cold. There is a lesser movement that might be under the umbrella of Incel called MGTOW (Men going their own way). It rejects matrimony, seeing it as wholly beneficial to women, and pushes men to create independence from women. These movements are a response by men who are lost in the murky waters of social change. On the one hand, MGTOW is saying "fuck it, we don't want to deal with you", whereas Incels are saying "fuck you, deal with me".

jenkstom 8y ago

Does this mean that if we legalize prostitution the incels will stop killing people? Seems reasonable and completely improbable that such a simple solution would ever be implemented.

DanBC 8y ago
If they're going to kill people you'd think the illegality of prostitution wouldn't be an impediment.
- hirundo 8y ago
  If their rage is a symptom of lackanookie then nookie may calm them. Hopefully legalizing it will be sufficient and we don't have to subsidize it.
  - DanBC 8y ago
    But sex is available to them. The problem isn't with "lack of sex", it's with "lack of puppets to fulfil their weird fantasies of what they think a woman is, vs what a woman actually is".
    - hirundo 8y ago
      You can't banish scarcity by denying it. Fertile females have always been scarce. And that's a good thing, as it's a primary driver of evolution. Frustrated men will always be with us and will continue to take their pain out on everyone around them, sometimes tragically. This dynamic is a major force in history, e.g. incentivising more warfare by polygamist cultures. Sexbots have the potential to change this, at an existential risk to our species. Here's hoping that your own bubble of plentiful sexual partners is never burst.
smacktoward 8y ago
Then they will just rebase their misplaced sense of grievance onto them having to pay for sex while the "Chads" get it for free.

johnny313 8y ago

Disappointing that this was flagged, seems like an interesting topic for the HN community.