4 ms·

It's one thing if they could have proven the case without this fabricated sting. Setting that up just to put the nails in the coffin of someone trying to do goo

It's one thing if they could have proven the case without this fabricated sting. Setting that up just to put the nails in the coffin of someone trying to do good seems pretty evil to me. Why the hell didn't the prosecutors just ring up the guy and say, "Hey, Microsoft is pretty pissed about these disks. If you don't [destroy them / remove their logo] we'll have to prosecute you." They have exactly that kind of discretion.

usefulcat 9y ago
Incentives. If they successfully prosecute him, they look good (at least in some dimensions, since it is their job to prosecute people). I doubt that is the case, or at least not as much, if they merely dissuade him without taking any legal action.
pc86 9y ago
I agree with you on that point, for sure. Prosecutors make their bones on pleas and convictions, not on solving the problem without going to court. I wish there was a way to allow prosecutors to do that without hurting their record, but I'm not sure there is.
cptskippy 9y ago
Lundgren intended to sell the disks to computer refurbisher shops, this is a fact of the case. In theory, they could have found a shop he intended to sell the discs to and caught him in the act. The OP was lamenting the waste of resources that went into setting up a sting, I would imagine the time involved in the above mentioned scenario would be much greater. Lundgren wasn't setup, he wasn't coerced into doing something illegal. He was or was planning to do it and they just called him up and asked to be a customer. This is similar to busting people for prostitution. You can either spend extraordinary time and effort in surveillance to catch them in the act. Or you can just dress in civilian clothing and approach them.
- thedragonline 9y ago
  Just curious - do you think this is a reasonable, proportional punishment?
  - cptskippy 9y ago
    Not at all. In this case he hadn't sold anything. They should have approached him and explained why he couldn't do what he was doing. Then gave him a remediation option, like destroying the discs, and dropping the matter. I'm also not convinced something like this didn't happened. All of his exposing about Microsoft double dipping and the whole system being designed to scam people out of money makes me suspicious of his true motivations. Microsoft stepped forward and corrected Federal Prosecutors who initially sought $299 per violation. They stated that they sold refurbishers licenses for $25 and the discs had at most a $20 value. Lundgren was convicted of counterfeiting and copyright violation, not piracy and is even quoted as saying if he'd labeled the discs differently this would have never happened. I'm curious if that statement was based on what he ultimately got convicted of or something else?
    - dragonline 9y ago
      >Then gave him a remediation option, like destroying the discs, and dropping the matter. This strikes me as the far more reasonable outcome that didn't happen. >I'm curious if that statement was based on what he ultimately got convicted of or something else? Who knows. As a practical matter, I do see a chilling effect coming out of this judgement for those reselling Windows boxes - either don't do it or make damn sure you have your legal ducks in a row. (edit:formatting)

usefulcat 9y ago

Incentives. If they successfully prosecute him, they look good (at least in some dimensions, since it is their job to prosecute people). I doubt that is the case, or at least not as much, if they merely dissuade him without taking any legal action.

pc86 9y ago

I agree with you on that point, for sure. Prosecutors make their bones on pleas and convictions, not on solving the problem without going to court. I wish there was a way to allow prosecutors to do that without hurting their record, but I'm not sure there is.

cptskippy 9y ago

Lundgren intended to sell the disks to computer refurbisher shops, this is a fact of the case. In theory, they could have found a shop he intended to sell the discs to and caught him in the act. The OP was lamenting the waste of resources that went into setting up a sting, I would imagine the time involved in the above mentioned scenario would be much greater. Lundgren wasn't setup, he wasn't coerced into doing something illegal. He was or was planning to do it and they just called him up and asked to be a customer. This is similar to busting people for prostitution. You can either spend extraordinary time and effort in surveillance to catch them in the act. Or you can just dress in civilian clothing and approach them.

thedragonline 9y ago
Just curious - do you think this is a reasonable, proportional punishment?
- cptskippy 9y ago
  Not at all. In this case he hadn't sold anything. They should have approached him and explained why he couldn't do what he was doing. Then gave him a remediation option, like destroying the discs, and dropping the matter. I'm also not convinced something like this didn't happened. All of his exposing about Microsoft double dipping and the whole system being designed to scam people out of money makes me suspicious of his true motivations. Microsoft stepped forward and corrected Federal Prosecutors who initially sought $299 per violation. They stated that they sold refurbishers licenses for $25 and the discs had at most a $20 value. Lundgren was convicted of counterfeiting and copyright violation, not piracy and is even quoted as saying if he'd labeled the discs differently this would have never happened. I'm curious if that statement was based on what he ultimately got convicted of or something else?
  - dragonline 9y ago
    >Then gave him a remediation option, like destroying the discs, and dropping the matter. This strikes me as the far more reasonable outcome that didn't happen. >I'm curious if that statement was based on what he ultimately got convicted of or something else? Who knows. As a practical matter, I do see a chilling effect coming out of this judgement for those reselling Windows boxes - either don't do it or make damn sure you have your legal ducks in a row. (edit:formatting)