6 ms·

I see lots of assertions to this effect. Is it really true? One point that no one seems to consider is that frustrating interview processes are a big contribut

I see lots of assertions to this effect. Is it really true? One point that no one seems to consider is that frustrating interview processes are a big contributor to smaller applicant pools; that is, a would-be good employee has applied a couple places, been filtered out by false negatives, and is thus disincentivized from even continuing to look for a better programming job. Personally, I don't like my current job but am growing frustrated with job hunting. I'm very close to just looking for a bartending job to go along with the part-time valet work that I picked up between jobs, and then maybe doing hobby programming in my spare time for pleasure and profit. I'm serious here: ridiculous interview processes are making the quality of the programmer pool worse by nudging programmers out of it altogether. Why is it so unreasonable to bring people in on an intern-like trial basis?

greg_holsclaw 16y ago
Maybe programmers nudged out of the process is a feature not a bug. People who self select out of a hard hiring process may meet not Google's criteria for certain attributes they want to see in their candidate.
- dlo 16y ago
  Reminds me of property management: When screening possible tenants, merely saying that you will conduct background and credit checks will deter some people from even applying, most of them being people you wouldn't want to rent out to anyway.
megrimlock 16y ago
> Why is it so unreasonable to bring people in on an intern-like trial basis? We do that, in addition to an interview process biased towards false negatives. We still find it expensive to make hiring mistakes, enough that we are still circumspect about candidates. Not only does it take a lot to build up someone new, it's emotionally costly to tell them at the end of the evaluation period that they didn't make the grade -- and still give them full support and a real chance the whole way, in case they can turn it around. It does happen; sometimes it just takes time for ambient culture values and priorities to sink in before people "get" what's important to succeed. It's much harder to do this trial period with option to buy, than for interns who are going back to school, where the expectations and time frame are clear. It also seems that the most capable candidates aren't as interested in being hired on a trial basis, since they have other options willing to commit more fully to them. These are a few reasons it doesn't work as well as you might hope. (* note, not talking about google here)
btilly 16y ago
It is really true. As you would know if you'd been on a team that needed to fire the wrong hire. As for why not to try people before you hire them, a lot of experienced people already have jobs. They aren't going to want to accept a "maybe yes, maybe no" position without a really strong incentive. That said, a number of companies do have policies of liking to hire contractors, then make some of them permanent. This kind of works. But the best contractors they'll find generally are contractors from choice, and so aren't likely to want to make the transition.
- michaelbuckbee 16y ago
  To me, this is one of the big unspoken about benefits of working in a startup. There is no room for slack and if someone isn't doing their job it's immediately apparent. Nothing kills my motivation more than working with someone who is technically incompetent and/or generally unpleasant to be around.
nandemo 16y ago
Are those interviews so frustrating that you are willing to take 2 low-paying jobs instead?
- BrandonM 16y ago
  As a bartender and a valet, I've easily averaged $15-25 an hour. Right now I'm making $25 an hour when I'm billing, and once I get home I'm not in the mood to do much computer work. Additionally, you can find service jobs anywhere, and start up very quickly. I'd rather have the flexibility to move anywhere, the stimulation of constantly meeting new people, and some leftover desire for personal projects when I get home than to have a programming job I don't like.
  - nandemo 16y ago
    Fair enough. Note that I'm not looking down on your choice of jobs (recently I've been thinking it would be cool to get a part time job as bartender but it's not feasible now) but I suppose they inevitably come with some hassle and that will be worse over time than the one-time hassle of the interviews. Besides I assumed your programming job would pay much more (well, it should).
jrockway 16y ago
Want to work in Chicago? Our interview process mostly consists of asking you questions you should know the answer to. If your answers make sense and you seem pleasant, welcome to the team. Oh, did I mention you'll probably make twice as much here than at Google? Incidentally, more people want to work at Google than want to work at Bank of America, even though there is plenty of interesting code to write at the Bank, and plenty of boring paperwork to do at Google. It doesn't make sense to me.
- BrandonM 16y ago
  I love Chicago... that sounds good to me.
- ciupicri 16y ago
  Could you please give some examples of interesting code at Bank of America?
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    Fraud detection.
    - cory_and_trevor 16y ago
      So, BoA wants to detect itself then?
- Dornkirk 16y ago
  What language(s), tech, framework is used for the software (web-apps? desktop? etc) at BoA?
  - jrockway 16y ago
    There are something like 70,000 developers and 300,000 total employees, so it's hard to say anything other than "all of the above". I mostly use Haskell and Perl. The rest of the department is mostly Perl. Sometimes I do C. Other groups are Python-heavy. There is a big Java and C# presence, and of course a lot of people that think C++ is the only real programming language. There is some initiative to standardize on C++ and Python, but I doubt that is ever actually going to happen.

greg_holsclaw 16y ago

Maybe programmers nudged out of the process is a feature not a bug. People who self select out of a hard hiring process may meet not Google's criteria for certain attributes they want to see in their candidate.

dlo 16y ago
Reminds me of property management: When screening possible tenants, merely saying that you will conduct background and credit checks will deter some people from even applying, most of them being people you wouldn't want to rent out to anyway.

megrimlock 16y ago

> Why is it so unreasonable to bring people in on an intern-like trial basis? We do that, in addition to an interview process biased towards false negatives. We still find it expensive to make hiring mistakes, enough that we are still circumspect about candidates. Not only does it take a lot to build up someone new, it's emotionally costly to tell them at the end of the evaluation period that they didn't make the grade -- and still give them full support and a real chance the whole way, in case they can turn it around. It does happen; sometimes it just takes time for ambient culture values and priorities to sink in before people "get" what's important to succeed. It's much harder to do this trial period with option to buy, than for interns who are going back to school, where the expectations and time frame are clear. It also seems that the most capable candidates aren't as interested in being hired on a trial basis, since they have other options willing to commit more fully to them. These are a few reasons it doesn't work as well as you might hope. (* note, not talking about google here)

btilly 16y ago

It is really true. As you would know if you'd been on a team that needed to fire the wrong hire. As for why not to try people before you hire them, a lot of experienced people already have jobs. They aren't going to want to accept a "maybe yes, maybe no" position without a really strong incentive. That said, a number of companies do have policies of liking to hire contractors, then make some of them permanent. This kind of works. But the best contractors they'll find generally are contractors from choice, and so aren't likely to want to make the transition.

michaelbuckbee 16y ago
To me, this is one of the big unspoken about benefits of working in a startup. There is no room for slack and if someone isn't doing their job it's immediately apparent. Nothing kills my motivation more than working with someone who is technically incompetent and/or generally unpleasant to be around.

nandemo 16y ago

Are those interviews so frustrating that you are willing to take 2 low-paying jobs instead?

BrandonM 16y ago
As a bartender and a valet, I've easily averaged $15-25 an hour. Right now I'm making $25 an hour when I'm billing, and once I get home I'm not in the mood to do much computer work. Additionally, you can find service jobs anywhere, and start up very quickly. I'd rather have the flexibility to move anywhere, the stimulation of constantly meeting new people, and some leftover desire for personal projects when I get home than to have a programming job I don't like.
- nandemo 16y ago
  Fair enough. Note that I'm not looking down on your choice of jobs (recently I've been thinking it would be cool to get a part time job as bartender but it's not feasible now) but I suppose they inevitably come with some hassle and that will be worse over time than the one-time hassle of the interviews. Besides I assumed your programming job would pay much more (well, it should).

jrockway 16y ago

Want to work in Chicago? Our interview process mostly consists of asking you questions you should know the answer to. If your answers make sense and you seem pleasant, welcome to the team. Oh, did I mention you'll probably make twice as much here than at Google? Incidentally, more people want to work at Google than want to work at Bank of America, even though there is plenty of interesting code to write at the Bank, and plenty of boring paperwork to do at Google. It doesn't make sense to me.

BrandonM 16y ago
I love Chicago... that sounds good to me.
ciupicri 16y ago
Could you please give some examples of interesting code at Bank of America?
- jacquesm 16y ago
  Fraud detection.
  - cory_and_trevor 16y ago
    So, BoA wants to detect itself then?
Dornkirk 16y ago
What language(s), tech, framework is used for the software (web-apps? desktop? etc) at BoA?
- jrockway 16y ago
  There are something like 70,000 developers and 300,000 total employees, so it's hard to say anything other than "all of the above". I mostly use Haskell and Perl. The rest of the department is mostly Perl. Sometimes I do C. Other groups are Python-heavy. There is a big Java and C# presence, and of course a lot of people that think C++ is the only real programming language. There is some initiative to standardize on C++ and Python, but I doubt that is ever actually going to happen.