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(this comment is aimed at you, but it's sort of pertinent to the article also) You simply can't rip out a UI convention like that. Think about how many browser

(this comment is aimed at you, but it's sort of pertinent to the article also) You simply can't rip out a UI convention like that. Think about how many browsers there are. Virtually all of them use the back button and an URL bar. Say you made a browser without those, with an innovative new navigation system. Think it'll catch on? Extremely unlikely. When you take out one of the oldest conventions in the book, people are going to use it for five seconds, 95% of them will decide they hate it, and will simply use what they're used to. Consider iTunes 10. iTunes 10, released only a week or so ago, changed the UI in a minor way. Somewhat minor, anyway. Here's a screenshot: http://cl.ly/2OWb http://cl.ly/2OWb Now, this looks a little different to your average Mac OS X app. Judging by my twitter feed, about 80% of my followers changed the window controls back to the old style (http://cl.ly/2ODf http://cl.ly/2ODf) as soon as the option became available. They did this despite the fact that it makes sense. Having the controls vertically saves space and provides an extra thirty pixels (or so) to view their music. Making sense doesn't matter in even rather minor UI changes like that. Like the old adage, a frog put in boiling water will jump straight out, but a frog being boiled will never notice. Consistency is key when it comes to UI conventions, and it's _extremely_ hard to change the tide. The only way to do it is if other leading people do it also. For example, Opera started using tabs on top at about the same time as Chrome did (don't quote me on that, I'm trying to make a point). Then Safari tried it, and now Firefox 4 has tabs on top as well. The only way to facilitate change is to not be alone in making it. Furthermore! "Some sort of bookmark/search/wiki replacement navigation system needs to be developed." Do you have any ideas as to how to implement that? (I'd honestly love to hear them, I'm not trying to bee too much of a sanctimonious dick. ;))

JeffJenkins 16y ago
Opera has had tabs above the address bar for as long as I've been a user. It makes it much more clear that the address bar and controls are actually associated with the tab, not the application. A key feature of this choice is that the search box and address bar will switch contents when you switch tabs, and if you switch back you will see what you had originally typed.
- hebejebelus 16y ago
  I wasn't really arguing that, though it brings up the fact that if you do it for long enough, it'll eventually become the standard. ;)
dstein 16y ago
The problem with the back button is it should not be the sole way to navigate. It really needs to be split into 2 buttons: "Back" and "Parent" (or "Up"). People use the back button for both purposes. And when you involve Iframes and Ajax-heavy web applications, the context of "back" gets entirely lost and broken. It's a big problem. There is an HTML5 api to give some level of control over the back button, and this may help to a certain degree. But I really believe it would be preferable to just move these concepts (navigate back and up) right into the web page, or the web application. There is absolutely nothing preventing web applications from giving a superior navigation experience than a one-size-fits-all web browser buttons.
- hebejebelus 16y ago
  > it would be preferable to just move these concepts (navigate back and up) right into the web page, or the web application By web application, I presume you mean for example google docs, rather than a browser. This would make it even less consistent, wouldn't it? Some pages/apps wouldn't have these controls, or they would look different or be in different locations across different pages/apps. "Back" and "Up" are virtually indistinguishable for an average user. Hell, I'd be surprised if I could give a good description about the difference, and I know computers inside-out. > There is absolutely nothing preventing web applications from giving a superior navigation experience than a one-size-fits-all web browser buttons. Except for the users...
  - dstein 16y ago
    >This would make it even less consistent, wouldn't it? Microsoft Word does not have a back button. What operation should a back button perform in Google Docs? >"Back" and "Up" are virtually indistinguishable for an average user. Sometimes you want to go "back" to the main page of a domain. Other times you just want go to the previous page. Other times you want to leave the website entirely. Other times you want to "undo". It simply makes no sense for a web browser to try to support all these features based on a simplistic web browser history based on URLs. It's an ancient way of thinking about the web.
stuhacking 16y ago
It annoyed me that Apple removed the top tabs from Safari without providing a option. I still use it as my primary browser but on my MacBook I'd have liked to keep those extra pixels.

JeffJenkins 16y ago

Opera has had tabs above the address bar for as long as I've been a user. It makes it much more clear that the address bar and controls are actually associated with the tab, not the application. A key feature of this choice is that the search box and address bar will switch contents when you switch tabs, and if you switch back you will see what you had originally typed.

hebejebelus 16y ago
I wasn't really arguing that, though it brings up the fact that if you do it for long enough, it'll eventually become the standard. ;)

dstein 16y ago

The problem with the back button is it should not be the sole way to navigate. It really needs to be split into 2 buttons: "Back" and "Parent" (or "Up"). People use the back button for both purposes. And when you involve Iframes and Ajax-heavy web applications, the context of "back" gets entirely lost and broken. It's a big problem. There is an HTML5 api to give some level of control over the back button, and this may help to a certain degree. But I really believe it would be preferable to just move these concepts (navigate back and up) right into the web page, or the web application. There is absolutely nothing preventing web applications from giving a superior navigation experience than a one-size-fits-all web browser buttons.

hebejebelus 16y ago
> it would be preferable to just move these concepts (navigate back and up) right into the web page, or the web application By web application, I presume you mean for example google docs, rather than a browser. This would make it even less consistent, wouldn't it? Some pages/apps wouldn't have these controls, or they would look different or be in different locations across different pages/apps. "Back" and "Up" are virtually indistinguishable for an average user. Hell, I'd be surprised if I could give a good description about the difference, and I know computers inside-out. > There is absolutely nothing preventing web applications from giving a superior navigation experience than a one-size-fits-all web browser buttons. Except for the users...
- dstein 16y ago
  >This would make it even less consistent, wouldn't it? Microsoft Word does not have a back button. What operation should a back button perform in Google Docs? >"Back" and "Up" are virtually indistinguishable for an average user. Sometimes you want to go "back" to the main page of a domain. Other times you just want go to the previous page. Other times you want to leave the website entirely. Other times you want to "undo". It simply makes no sense for a web browser to try to support all these features based on a simplistic web browser history based on URLs. It's an ancient way of thinking about the web.

stuhacking 16y ago

It annoyed me that Apple removed the top tabs from Safari without providing a option. I still use it as my primary browser but on my MacBook I'd have liked to keep those extra pixels.