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Agreed, investing in China is the "invading Russia" of the tech world. Yes, China is a huge market and a rapidly growing economy, which makes investing there an

Agreed, investing in China is the "invading Russia" of the tech world. Yes, China is a huge market and a rapidly growing economy, which makes investing there an extremely appetizing prospect. However, it seems very difficult for non-chinese to be able to hold onto their investments in China without their business being ripped off (e.g. having the business model copied by a more Chinese company that gets favorable government treatment and takes over the nascent market), not to mention the political uncertainty of having to deal with / win the favor of arbitrary officials in the Chinese government that may have interests conflicting with your own. And even if you are successful, you have to consider the ethics of what you're enabling - suppose you create a wildly successful and helpful service for Chinese people that involves users' geographic data, private messages between individuals, or financial transactions. You won't get a say in turning over that data to authorities for any and every reason that they have for wanting it. Are you willing to actively participate in corruption and the quashing of political dissent for money?

DanielBMarkham 9y ago
"And even if you are successful, you have to consider the ethics of what you're enabling..." This is the thing I don't understand. Ten years ago, you could make a case that simply by making stuff people want, the world would become more connected, all sorts of goodness will happen. You can no longer make that case. People are not idiots. They see both the good and bad that tech has brought. Technology companies are ethically responsible for what their tools end up doing. And if they can't be bothered to develop their own ethics, the rest of us are going to have to develop some for them. I must be missing something. YC is a really smart bunch of guys. Certainly they know what the hell they're getting into.
- d4rti 9y ago
  > The most amazing thing about Silicon Valley is that they all think they are on the left side of the political spectrum, while it is totally unquestioned that the venture capital firms should make every single decision on how human activity is organized. Existentialist Comics https://twitter.com/existentialcoms/status/988877507611967489 https://twitter.com/existentialcoms/status/98887750761196748...
  - chillacy 9y ago
    The political spectrum is more like a political plane, with one axis being economic and the other being social, and with a 2 party system we've conveniently collapsed it into a line. It's probably more accurate to say that silicon valley runs libertarian, especially those in the startup game, and especially YC and folks. http://www.paulgraham.com/inequality.html http://www.paulgraham.com/inequality.html
- goseeastarwar 9y ago
  Cash Rules Everything Around Me So says Wu-Tang Clan and apparently YC.
  - zappo2938 9y ago
    I think the song was about rising out poverty and that the Wu-tang did it music instead of gangbanging, killing, and drug dealing. They use their own experiences to show young men living in poverty that the can find other means to obtain respect and lots of money that is healthy for themselves and their communities.
    - polmoya 9y ago
      I don't think so
    - aoner 9y ago
      Quite the opposite. The songs is about them selling drugs: “Catchin' keys from 'cross seas, Rollin' in MPV's, Every week we made forty G's” The basic premise is money rules everything so if I want power/influence/success I have to either play the game or accept defeat. “Method Man is not glorifying money and excess; rather, he’s saying that money holds power, and is a factor of major decisions made in the world he lives in. Those who have it, have power and those who don’t, won’t get up anywhere; sort of a way of saying “Money is the root of all evil”, if you will.”
- baybal2 9y ago
  >I must be missing something. YC is a really smart bunch of guys. Certainly they know what the hell they're getting into. It seems so very much. From my impression, SV people in China are not to run a new business, rather than to secure connections. See, they did not pair with a university with a genuine tech cred, nor they hold this school anywhere close to a tech hub, but in Beijing, and a university that is second after the central committee party school. The list of invited people I've heard also suggest that.
  - dmoy 9y ago
    Wait is the implication here that tsinghua uni has no tech cred? I agree that parts of tsinghua are pretty chummy with the party, but trying to claim it has no tech cred seems a bit of a stretch. It's arguably in like the top 10 eng/comp sci unis in the entire world. Both QS and ARWU put it in top 10. (THE puts it in top 20)
    - baybal2 9y ago
      Tsinghua Uni is big in everything, not only tech as "the official no. 1 university in the country by decree" must be. Not to say that it is also freaking wealthy, as much alike Yale Uni is in USA (through Tsinghua University Group Holding.) No denial from me that that they do pump out high profile publications in amount enough to bruteforce themselves into ratings. Think of them as a Moscow State Uni back in USSR times. The few universities Chinese tech scene gives cred, are virtually unknown in the West, you will not find them on any rating list, but that does not preclude their students be "booked" years in advance by the industry.
      - ptx 9y ago
        Could you name those few unknown universities with tech cred? I'm genuinely curious, in case I decide to study computer science in China in the future. I thought Tsinghua was the one to aim for.
        baybal2 9y ago
- icantdrive55 9y ago
  "They see both the good and bad that tech has brought." I am seeing very little good. I'm just seeing more, and more jobs dissapearing. ("But the unemployment rate is so low?" Look at the the number of able bodied people not working number. I number people don't look at.) And the poeople with money building monopolies. (I guess that's the end result of Capitalism? And people who pride themselves on questionable morals/ethics? And at the same time, I'm here daily?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
TAForObvReasons 9y ago
> you have to consider the ethics of what you're enabling Keep in mind, YC took money from Yuri Milner in 2011 even though people knew at the time that there were connections to Russian oligarchs [1] and funded startups that promulgated junkware installers [2] among other things. On the "doing the right thing" vs "making more money" spectrum, YC is firmly on the side of "making more money", ethics be damned. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3143894 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3143894 the PG comment and the first few responses contextualize this well. [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5092711 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5092711 a discussion about InstallMonetizer
mistermann 9y ago
> Agreed, investing in China is the "invading Russia" of the tech world. I'd go even one step further, it is more like partnering with Germany, except in this version of the story Germany might be successful in its quest to take over the world, because make no mistake, China is coming for your market, it's only a matter of time. It is encouraging that more and more people are finally starting to put the pieces of this puzzle together, shame it is far too little and far too late.
- dnomad 9y ago
  The vast fear and ignorance in this thread is amusing but the comparison of China to Nazi Germany is perhaps a new low, even for Hacker News? It's interesting though how people develop such warped perceptions of the world. It's exactly how the greatest disaster of the 21st century, the absolutely unprovoked and absolutely senseless American invasion of Iraq which killed a million people and directly led to the rise of Isis and even more extreme suffering, come to pass. And so what you have here is a bunch of silly people, few of which have likely even been to China let alone done any serious investigation of Chinese culture or politics, utterly trapped in a paranoid fantasy in which -- believe it or not -- China is the aggressor coming for their markets. Nevermind the US's military bases all over the world or the TPP, an initiative started by the US with the explicit goal of denying and containing Chinese expansion. This sort of delusion is just breath taking. I guess all one can do is hope it doesn't lead to war but I strongly suspect it is. Americans will never face reality as this thread shows. They will gladly and firmly embrace the delusion and blame all their problems on somebody else even if it leads to absolute catastrophe. Absolutely nothing has changed since the Iraq War.
  - ng12 9y ago
    I'd love to see a defense of Chinese policy that doesn't fall back upon whataboutism. America's shortcomings have nothing to do with my ability to criticism China's human rights abuses and appalling lack of individual liberty.
    - dnomad 9y ago

DanielBMarkham 9y ago

"And even if you are successful, you have to consider the ethics of what you're enabling..." This is the thing I don't understand. Ten years ago, you could make a case that simply by making stuff people want, the world would become more connected, all sorts of goodness will happen. You can no longer make that case. People are not idiots. They see both the good and bad that tech has brought. Technology companies are ethically responsible for what their tools end up doing. And if they can't be bothered to develop their own ethics, the rest of us are going to have to develop some for them. I must be missing something. YC is a really smart bunch of guys. Certainly they know what the hell they're getting into.

d4rti 9y ago
> The most amazing thing about Silicon Valley is that they all think they are on the left side of the political spectrum, while it is totally unquestioned that the venture capital firms should make every single decision on how human activity is organized. Existentialist Comics https://twitter.com/existentialcoms/status/988877507611967489 https://twitter.com/existentialcoms/status/98887750761196748...
- chillacy 9y ago
  The political spectrum is more like a political plane, with one axis being economic and the other being social, and with a 2 party system we've conveniently collapsed it into a line. It's probably more accurate to say that silicon valley runs libertarian, especially those in the startup game, and especially YC and folks. http://www.paulgraham.com/inequality.html http://www.paulgraham.com/inequality.html
goseeastarwar 9y ago
Cash Rules Everything Around Me So says Wu-Tang Clan and apparently YC.
- zappo2938 9y ago
  I think the song was about rising out poverty and that the Wu-tang did it music instead of gangbanging, killing, and drug dealing. They use their own experiences to show young men living in poverty that the can find other means to obtain respect and lots of money that is healthy for themselves and their communities.
  - polmoya 9y ago
    I don't think so
  - aoner 9y ago
    Quite the opposite. The songs is about them selling drugs: “Catchin' keys from 'cross seas, Rollin' in MPV's, Every week we made forty G's” The basic premise is money rules everything so if I want power/influence/success I have to either play the game or accept defeat. “Method Man is not glorifying money and excess; rather, he’s saying that money holds power, and is a factor of major decisions made in the world he lives in. Those who have it, have power and those who don’t, won’t get up anywhere; sort of a way of saying “Money is the root of all evil”, if you will.”
baybal2 9y ago
>I must be missing something. YC is a really smart bunch of guys. Certainly they know what the hell they're getting into. It seems so very much. From my impression, SV people in China are not to run a new business, rather than to secure connections. See, they did not pair with a university with a genuine tech cred, nor they hold this school anywhere close to a tech hub, but in Beijing, and a university that is second after the central committee party school. The list of invited people I've heard also suggest that.
- dmoy 9y ago
  Wait is the implication here that tsinghua uni has no tech cred? I agree that parts of tsinghua are pretty chummy with the party, but trying to claim it has no tech cred seems a bit of a stretch. It's arguably in like the top 10 eng/comp sci unis in the entire world. Both QS and ARWU put it in top 10. (THE puts it in top 20)
  - baybal2 9y ago
    Tsinghua Uni is big in everything, not only tech as "the official no. 1 university in the country by decree" must be. Not to say that it is also freaking wealthy, as much alike Yale Uni is in USA (through Tsinghua University Group Holding.) No denial from me that that they do pump out high profile publications in amount enough to bruteforce themselves into ratings. Think of them as a Moscow State Uni back in USSR times. The few universities Chinese tech scene gives cred, are virtually unknown in the West, you will not find them on any rating list, but that does not preclude their students be "booked" years in advance by the industry.
    - ptx 9y ago
      Could you name those few unknown universities with tech cred? I'm genuinely curious, in case I decide to study computer science in China in the future. I thought Tsinghua was the one to aim for.
      - baybal2 9y ago
icantdrive55 9y ago
"They see both the good and bad that tech has brought." I am seeing very little good. I'm just seeing more, and more jobs dissapearing. ("But the unemployment rate is so low?" Look at the the number of able bodied people not working number. I number people don't look at.) And the poeople with money building monopolies. (I guess that's the end result of Capitalism? And people who pride themselves on questionable morals/ethics? And at the same time, I'm here daily?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

TAForObvReasons 9y ago

> you have to consider the ethics of what you're enabling Keep in mind, YC took money from Yuri Milner in 2011 even though people knew at the time that there were connections to Russian oligarchs [1] and funded startups that promulgated junkware installers [2] among other things. On the "doing the right thing" vs "making more money" spectrum, YC is firmly on the side of "making more money", ethics be damned. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3143894 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3143894 the PG comment and the first few responses contextualize this well. [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5092711 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5092711 a discussion about InstallMonetizer

mistermann 9y ago

> Agreed, investing in China is the "invading Russia" of the tech world. I'd go even one step further, it is more like partnering with Germany, except in this version of the story Germany might be successful in its quest to take over the world, because make no mistake, China is coming for your market, it's only a matter of time. It is encouraging that more and more people are finally starting to put the pieces of this puzzle together, shame it is far too little and far too late.

dnomad 9y ago
The vast fear and ignorance in this thread is amusing but the comparison of China to Nazi Germany is perhaps a new low, even for Hacker News? It's interesting though how people develop such warped perceptions of the world. It's exactly how the greatest disaster of the 21st century, the absolutely unprovoked and absolutely senseless American invasion of Iraq which killed a million people and directly led to the rise of Isis and even more extreme suffering, come to pass. And so what you have here is a bunch of silly people, few of which have likely even been to China let alone done any serious investigation of Chinese culture or politics, utterly trapped in a paranoid fantasy in which -- believe it or not -- China is the aggressor coming for their markets. Nevermind the US's military bases all over the world or the TPP, an initiative started by the US with the explicit goal of denying and containing Chinese expansion. This sort of delusion is just breath taking. I guess all one can do is hope it doesn't lead to war but I strongly suspect it is. Americans will never face reality as this thread shows. They will gladly and firmly embrace the delusion and blame all their problems on somebody else even if it leads to absolute catastrophe. Absolutely nothing has changed since the Iraq War.
- ng12 9y ago
  I'd love to see a defense of Chinese policy that doesn't fall back upon whataboutism. America's shortcomings have nothing to do with my ability to criticism China's human rights abuses and appalling lack of individual liberty.
  - dnomad 9y ago