7 ms·

Why would immigrants move to where they're not wanted? Also, how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? Many of our country's

Why would immigrants move to where they're not wanted? Also, how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? Many of our country's rural trends are a pushback against multiculturalism, which pushes the idea that there is no right or wrong way to live as long as you don't hurt other people. Common languages, religions, norms, customs, and beliefs simply don't matter. But how can a sense of community form when you can't even talk to your neighbors? Why is this pushback being met with cries of racism?

krapp 9y ago
>Also, how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? When the desire to maintain a common identity is based on racial or ethnic identity, and that desire excludes the possibility that races or ethnicities other than your own can, or should, be a part your community, then that desire can be accurately described as racist or at best xenophobic. >Many of our country's rural trends are a pushback against multiculturalism, which pushes the idea that there is no right or wrong way to live as long as you don't hurt other people. Common languages, religions, norms, customs, and beliefs simply don't matter. I don't see what's supposed to be wrong with that premise. >But how can a sense of community form when you can't even talk to your neighbors? Why is this pushback being met with cries of racism? It already has, and does - and that sense of community as it includes people of different races, ethnicities and religions, is precisely what is being pushed against. Talking about language is a red herring - this "push against multiculturalism" is also a push against immigrants who speak English perfectly well, and who integrate perfectly well into their communities, and are law abiding citizens, but are not considered white and may not be Christian. Until the demographics of the country began to shift to the point that the majority status and political power of wh - sorry - people of European descent - began to be threatened, this didn't seem to be an issue. It is clearly a movement based on an attempt to normalize the redefinition of culture and community around race and ethnicity.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  > When the desire to maintain a common identity is based on racial or ethnic identity... then that desire can be accurately described as racist or at best xenophobic. This would be true and understandable if immigration wasn't so incredibly skewed towards Mexicans, but it is skewed. There are over 11 million illegal immigrants in a country of 300 million, the majority of which are Mexican/Latino. That is an incredibly large amount. > Until the demographics of the country began to shift to the point that the majority status and political power of wh - sorry - people of European descent - began to be threatened, this didn't seem to be an issue. It is clearly a movement based on an attempt to normalize the redefinition of culture and community around race and ethnicity. I find it funny how you blame white people for the hate, then blame them for the redefinition of culture and community around race and ethnicity... right after blaming white people for some perceived degradation of our country...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
    How many of the problems the US faces are genuinely caused by immigration, and how many would change if immigration ended? That's the crux of the matter. Factually, in the UK virtually none of our social and economic problems have been caused by immigration. When you look into the facts, unaffordable housing, a creaking health service, street violence, and job losses are all effects of policy, not specific groups of foreign people. Coincidentally, the people pushing the policies that created our problems are also the most enthusiastic using immigrants as a scapegoat and misdirection. I wonder if the US is the same.
    - ForRealsies 9y ago
      Part and parcel of living in a big city like London.
    - mantas 9y ago
      Immigrants do put pressure on housing and health services though. As well as directly causing job losses by dumping wages. Of course, a magical policy may have stopped those issues. But taking in a lot of immigrants and not changing policies accordingly is what causes havoc.
nl 9y ago
Why is this pushback being met with cries of racism? Because it's often couched in explicitly racist terms. Shared values should matter more than the color of your skin, and values can (and often are) shared across cultures.
- Density 9y ago
  Stop calling people you don't understand racists. These rednecks hate all people who refuse to fit into their culture. They'll hate white NY or CA transplants just as much as they hate Mexicans. Unfortunately actual racism is picking up steam with these folks.
  - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
    Just this last weekend, we were going through northern Ohio. We stopped at a restaurant. Greasy spoon, one of. Smelled good outside, and lots of cars. We ate. Good food, reasonable price. Near the end, the waitress asked if we'd NOT pay in credit card, so she wouldn't have to report the tips. I'm not terribly concerned about being a conspirator to tax fraud with someone making $2.35/hr Then she goes into talking about her daughter who moved back in. Disabled. And when they went to the Social Security office and Welfare office, "those brown and black people always seem to get it". She went off on a soliloquy about 'us poor whites'. Yeah, racism exists. And we've seen it in rural communities much more than urban. The worst part, is that I would bet that she didn't think she was being racist. edit: added "not pay in credit card"
    - Clubber 9y ago
      I believe you are confusing racism with bigotry. Here is the dictionary definition of racism: >prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. Of course superior is an objective word, but I don't see any evidence in that quoted statement where she felt superior. Honestly sounded more like self pity, jealousy and stereotyping. "Those union people get paid way more than they deserve," "Those college kids get all the breaks." The only difference is her target were "brown and and black people." She satisfied the first half of the definition, "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race" but I didn't see the second half, "based on the belief that one's own race is superior." I could be wrong.
mattzito 9y ago
> how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? On the face of it, no, of course, wanting to maintain a sense of community in your town is not inherently racist. But there needs to be a recognition and acceptance of the fact that the identity of a community needs to change and evolve, and people arriving from somewhere else can be part of that. I would also argue that: > Many of our country's rural trends are a pushback against multiculturalism, which pushes the idea that there is no right or wrong way to live as long as you don't hurt other people Is an oversimplification of both rural trends AND multiculturalism. Rural america has historically been deeply shaped by immigration and migration, and rural america was fine with it, as long as economic and social opportunity was growing. When that ceased to be the case, immigration/multiculturalism was one of many factors blamed.
- creaghpatr 9y ago
  >But there needs to be a recognition and acceptance of the fact that the identity of a community needs to change and evolve... No, there doesn't 'need'
  - mattzito 9y ago
    Are you suggesting that communities can stay frozen in time, unchanging forever? Even the Amish have adopted cell phones and automobiles, and the Satmars in NYC are huge WhatsApp users. Any community that thinks they can remain totally insular is both fooling itself and doomed to failure.
    - creaghpatr 9y ago
      >Are you suggesting that communities can stay frozen in time, unchanging forever? No
    - collyw 9y ago
      Mobile phones don't define a culture. Almost every culture on the planet has adopted them now. Attitudes and shared behaviors do.
ashleyn 9y ago
For decades, America has embraced a civic nationalism over a European-style ethnic nationalism. This is that certain notions of freedom and responsibility, not blood and soil, were the real ties that bind. A sense of community can transcend religion and race, and this is what we should strive for.
- bluthru 9y ago
  "Decades" is a short amount of time and "embraced" obviously varies wildly. When the Immigration Act of 1965 was passed it was promised that "the ethnic makeup will not be upset". The American people never voted to be demographically displaced. (Why would they?) >A sense of community can transcend religion and race It can, but you're swimming against nature. Do you think the Japanese people would be happier if Japan was minority Japanese?
  - pknight 9y ago
    > Do you think the Japanese people would be happier if Japan was minority Japanese? The more interesting question is why are the Japanese so miserable, 53 other countries rank over Japan despite features that some say should promote happiness. You might even say that the hypothesis that social cohesion must be upheld by deterring ethnic influences in the pursuit of happier communities can't find a worse example in Japan.
    - bluthru 9y ago
      https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/16/these-are-the-top-10-happiest-countries-in-the-world.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/16/these-are-the-top-10-happies... White countries with low diversity.
      - pknight 9y ago
        These are all modern economies, most of which operate immigration-friendly regimes. Sweden, Netherlands, Switzerland, Iceland, Denmark, Norway and Finland are all signed up to freedom of movement, which doesn't discriminate on the basis of religion, ethnicity or place of birth, provided you are a citizen in the EEA or Switzerland, or if you are married to such a citizen. Anyway, the point is not that diversity cultivates happiness (no simple answer to that), the point is that some people believe in keeping communities homogeneous and argue that this promotes happiness. That happiness boost is nowhere to be seen when looking at real world examples.

krapp 9y ago

>Also, how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? When the desire to maintain a common identity is based on racial or ethnic identity, and that desire excludes the possibility that races or ethnicities other than your own can, or should, be a part your community, then that desire can be accurately described as racist or at best xenophobic. >Many of our country's rural trends are a pushback against multiculturalism, which pushes the idea that there is no right or wrong way to live as long as you don't hurt other people. Common languages, religions, norms, customs, and beliefs simply don't matter. I don't see what's supposed to be wrong with that premise. >But how can a sense of community form when you can't even talk to your neighbors? Why is this pushback being met with cries of racism? It already has, and does - and that sense of community as it includes people of different races, ethnicities and religions, is precisely what is being pushed against. Talking about language is a red herring - this "push against multiculturalism" is also a push against immigrants who speak English perfectly well, and who integrate perfectly well into their communities, and are law abiding citizens, but are not considered white and may not be Christian. Until the demographics of the country began to shift to the point that the majority status and political power of wh - sorry - people of European descent - began to be threatened, this didn't seem to be an issue. It is clearly a movement based on an attempt to normalize the redefinition of culture and community around race and ethnicity.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
> When the desire to maintain a common identity is based on racial or ethnic identity... then that desire can be accurately described as racist or at best xenophobic. This would be true and understandable if immigration wasn't so incredibly skewed towards Mexicans, but it is skewed. There are over 11 million illegal immigrants in a country of 300 million, the majority of which are Mexican/Latino. That is an incredibly large amount. > Until the demographics of the country began to shift to the point that the majority status and political power of wh - sorry - people of European descent - began to be threatened, this didn't seem to be an issue. It is clearly a movement based on an attempt to normalize the redefinition of culture and community around race and ethnicity. I find it funny how you blame white people for the hate, then blame them for the redefinition of culture and community around race and ethnicity... right after blaming white people for some perceived degradation of our country...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
  How many of the problems the US faces are genuinely caused by immigration, and how many would change if immigration ended? That's the crux of the matter. Factually, in the UK virtually none of our social and economic problems have been caused by immigration. When you look into the facts, unaffordable housing, a creaking health service, street violence, and job losses are all effects of policy, not specific groups of foreign people. Coincidentally, the people pushing the policies that created our problems are also the most enthusiastic using immigrants as a scapegoat and misdirection. I wonder if the US is the same.
  - ForRealsies 9y ago
    Part and parcel of living in a big city like London.
  - mantas 9y ago
    Immigrants do put pressure on housing and health services though. As well as directly causing job losses by dumping wages. Of course, a magical policy may have stopped those issues. But taking in a lot of immigrants and not changing policies accordingly is what causes havoc.

nl 9y ago

Why is this pushback being met with cries of racism? Because it's often couched in explicitly racist terms. Shared values should matter more than the color of your skin, and values can (and often are) shared across cultures.

Density 9y ago
Stop calling people you don't understand racists. These rednecks hate all people who refuse to fit into their culture. They'll hate white NY or CA transplants just as much as they hate Mexicans. Unfortunately actual racism is picking up steam with these folks.
- crankylinuxuser 9y ago
  Just this last weekend, we were going through northern Ohio. We stopped at a restaurant. Greasy spoon, one of. Smelled good outside, and lots of cars. We ate. Good food, reasonable price. Near the end, the waitress asked if we'd NOT pay in credit card, so she wouldn't have to report the tips. I'm not terribly concerned about being a conspirator to tax fraud with someone making $2.35/hr Then she goes into talking about her daughter who moved back in. Disabled. And when they went to the Social Security office and Welfare office, "those brown and black people always seem to get it". She went off on a soliloquy about 'us poor whites'. Yeah, racism exists. And we've seen it in rural communities much more than urban. The worst part, is that I would bet that she didn't think she was being racist. edit: added "not pay in credit card"
  - Clubber 9y ago
    I believe you are confusing racism with bigotry. Here is the dictionary definition of racism: >prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. Of course superior is an objective word, but I don't see any evidence in that quoted statement where she felt superior. Honestly sounded more like self pity, jealousy and stereotyping. "Those union people get paid way more than they deserve," "Those college kids get all the breaks." The only difference is her target were "brown and and black people." She satisfied the first half of the definition, "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race" but I didn't see the second half, "based on the belief that one's own race is superior." I could be wrong.

mattzito 9y ago

> how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? On the face of it, no, of course, wanting to maintain a sense of community in your town is not inherently racist. But there needs to be a recognition and acceptance of the fact that the identity of a community needs to change and evolve, and people arriving from somewhere else can be part of that. I would also argue that: > Many of our country's rural trends are a pushback against multiculturalism, which pushes the idea that there is no right or wrong way to live as long as you don't hurt other people Is an oversimplification of both rural trends AND multiculturalism. Rural america has historically been deeply shaped by immigration and migration, and rural america was fine with it, as long as economic and social opportunity was growing. When that ceased to be the case, immigration/multiculturalism was one of many factors blamed.

creaghpatr 9y ago
>But there needs to be a recognition and acceptance of the fact that the identity of a community needs to change and evolve... No, there doesn't 'need'
- mattzito 9y ago
  Are you suggesting that communities can stay frozen in time, unchanging forever? Even the Amish have adopted cell phones and automobiles, and the Satmars in NYC are huge WhatsApp users. Any community that thinks they can remain totally insular is both fooling itself and doomed to failure.
  - creaghpatr 9y ago
    >Are you suggesting that communities can stay frozen in time, unchanging forever? No
  - collyw 9y ago
    Mobile phones don't define a culture. Almost every culture on the planet has adopted them now. Attitudes and shared behaviors do.

ashleyn 9y ago

For decades, America has embraced a civic nationalism over a European-style ethnic nationalism. This is that certain notions of freedom and responsibility, not blood and soil, were the real ties that bind. A sense of community can transcend religion and race, and this is what we should strive for.

bluthru 9y ago
"Decades" is a short amount of time and "embraced" obviously varies wildly. When the Immigration Act of 1965 was passed it was promised that "the ethnic makeup will not be upset". The American people never voted to be demographically displaced. (Why would they?) >A sense of community can transcend religion and race It can, but you're swimming against nature. Do you think the Japanese people would be happier if Japan was minority Japanese?
- pknight 9y ago
  > Do you think the Japanese people would be happier if Japan was minority Japanese? The more interesting question is why are the Japanese so miserable, 53 other countries rank over Japan despite features that some say should promote happiness. You might even say that the hypothesis that social cohesion must be upheld by deterring ethnic influences in the pursuit of happier communities can't find a worse example in Japan.
  - bluthru 9y ago
    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/16/these-are-the-top-10-happiest-countries-in-the-world.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/16/these-are-the-top-10-happies... White countries with low diversity.
    - pknight 9y ago
      These are all modern economies, most of which operate immigration-friendly regimes. Sweden, Netherlands, Switzerland, Iceland, Denmark, Norway and Finland are all signed up to freedom of movement, which doesn't discriminate on the basis of religion, ethnicity or place of birth, provided you are a citizen in the EEA or Switzerland, or if you are married to such a citizen. Anyway, the point is not that diversity cultivates happiness (no simple answer to that), the point is that some people believe in keeping communities homogeneous and argue that this promotes happiness. That happiness boost is nowhere to be seen when looking at real world examples.