4 ms·

Gender equality is not nearly as big an issue in Asia compared to the west. My experience is in Japan, but I could summarise a common opinion as "Men and women

Gender equality is not nearly as big an issue in Asia compared to the west. My experience is in Japan, but I could summarise a common opinion as "Men and women are different and should be treated differently". Recently, when asking for a recommendation for a tax credit accountant, I was asked if I would prefer a man or a woman. The question was very matter of fact and not thought of as unusual. To make things clear: I think this is nonsense and should be called out when it comes up.

objectcreate 9y ago
> I think this is nonsense and should be called out when it comes up. Don't be such a cultural imperialist. You think you're "doing the right thing" -- but isn't it "wrong" to assume your culture's current (in flux) definition of culturally "progressive" values is actually a moral right? Come to China and see what things are like. Then maybe you can feel entitled to dictate what to call out. You think your culture is morally supremacist, but are you so sure you are so right? Maybe your way is not the only "right" way -- maybe you can learn from other cultures. But you don't be open to doing that while you are so sure of your own moral supremacism. And being so certain, so full of passionate intensity of your own righteousness -- well that's just likely to make you less open to correction and learning, and more likely to be wrong, isn't it? If your culture is so adept at "equality" (even "gender equality") then why are your genders ( races / politics ) so divided? In light of the actual state of things, rather than how you prefer to see them ( through a culturally imperialist lens of your own moral supremacism ) -- isn't it more likely that divisions have been artificially and deliberately inflamed, to keep you all fighting each other, to distract you from placing the blame on those in power? To make you all easier to control, in other words. The best slaves are the ones who think they are free. "Progressive liberal values" has been a great way to divide people into groups to better distract and control them, and get them to channel their (perhaps otherwise constructively directed) emotions, into useless vitriol and conflict. Also stressed out combat-mode people purchase more, and think less about it. So, a harmful way to bolster consumer economy. Also it's incorrect to say "gender equality" is not an issue "in Asia". It's just you don't understand how it is. In China, Mao made women and men equal before feminism "liberated" Western women. But of course, "the West got there first" and better -- Oldest fake narrative in the book, buddy.
- dang 9y ago
  I'm sure you have some good points in there but could you please not cross into flamewar? It's against the rules here, because it destroys thoughtful discussion and poisons the community. If you'd read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow them, we'd appreciate it. Don't miss this one: Comments should get more civil and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
  - objectcreate 9y ago
    OK. I guess I should stay away from commenting here. Because I'm just a flamethrower it seems. This is not the right forum for me.
- wpietri 9y ago
  It's true that in the socialist era, Mao and others really pushed for progress in gender equality. To their great credit! But beginning with pro-market reforms, a lot of that progress has been lost: https://cpianalysis.org/2017/10/23/the-struggle-for-gender-equality-in-xis-new-era/ https://cpianalysis.org/2017/10/23/the-struggle-for-gender-e... I also think the rest of your critique doesn't really hold together. You seem to be playing both sides of your ambivalence on gender equality. And for somebody opposed to one culture criticizing another, you seem awfully willing to be very vigorous in criticizing another culture.
  - bmarkovic 9y ago
    Not just in China but in post-socialist Europe as well. Male chauvinism goes hand in hand with nationalist chauvinism and is the one of the first things to resurface back into the social norm as part of post-socialist social reform in all these countries. Still, in the post-post-socialism (i.e. when the society recovered from the right-wing dominance of transition years) many of these returned to these values and I bet if one would to do an earnest comparison (which Western media rarely want, too much bias) they'd probably be able to count significantly more females in high politics, enterprise management and even entrepreneurship than in places like the USA, Ireland, Switzerland or other more conservative western countries. In some of those countries, like Croatia and Serbia (even if they'd hate to admit it), even the right has been pushed, partly by inherited social norms and partly by strong female presence in the left to de-masculinise as well. Hence the female right-wing president in Croatia and the far-right lesbian prime minister in Serbia.
toephu2 9y ago
I think objectcreate has a lot of good points. Did you know in China almost no women change their last name to their husband's upon marriage (and it's been this way long before feminism even became a thing in the West)? Whereas today in the "progressive" West it is still expected that women change their last name to their husband's and most do.
- whooshee 9y ago
  Yes, modern Chinese women would be offended if you call them Mrs (husband's surname)
- yorwba 9y ago
  But children usually bear their father's surname, and if they don't, there's the assumption something's wrong with the father's side. (E.g. his name is not known, or they divorced before birth.) I think it is silly to try to compare across cultures by looking for the presence or absence of specific customs, because you'll always be biased by your awareness of practices in your own culture, and ignorance of those in a different culture.
- AlbertoGP 9y ago
  > Whereas today in the "progressive" West it is still expected that women change their last name to their husband's and most do. Not in Spain, where everyone keeps their last names and it was traditionally so before feminism. Children get two last names, traditionally the first from the father and then from the mother, but the order can be reversed.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
wyclif 9y ago
Gender equality is pretty much a Western thing, and specifically an American obsession. In Asian countries it's not a big deal. I'm living in SE Asia now and can attest to this.
- threatofrain 8y ago
  Many medical institutions will ask if you prefer a female or male doctor. Same with psychologist. What does it matter that we might consider the gender of the medical practitioner or psychologist? Are we next going to consider racial interactions as relevant to medical efficacy?
whooshee 9y ago
China is really different from Japan/Korea when regarding at gender. Women were called to hold up the half the sky in China since the very beginning. And nowadays girls are just equally demanded to be excellent at STEM. I guess the reason is China had few revolutions while Japan and Korea were basically reforming themselves.

objectcreate 9y ago

> I think this is nonsense and should be called out when it comes up. Don't be such a cultural imperialist. You think you're "doing the right thing" -- but isn't it "wrong" to assume your culture's current (in flux) definition of culturally "progressive" values is actually a moral right? Come to China and see what things are like. Then maybe you can feel entitled to dictate what to call out. You think your culture is morally supremacist, but are you so sure you are so right? Maybe your way is not the only "right" way -- maybe you can learn from other cultures. But you don't be open to doing that while you are so sure of your own moral supremacism. And being so certain, so full of passionate intensity of your own righteousness -- well that's just likely to make you less open to correction and learning, and more likely to be wrong, isn't it? If your culture is so adept at "equality" (even "gender equality") then why are your genders ( races / politics ) so divided? In light of the actual state of things, rather than how you prefer to see them ( through a culturally imperialist lens of your own moral supremacism ) -- isn't it more likely that divisions have been artificially and deliberately inflamed, to keep you all fighting each other, to distract you from placing the blame on those in power? To make you all easier to control, in other words. The best slaves are the ones who think they are free. "Progressive liberal values" has been a great way to divide people into groups to better distract and control them, and get them to channel their (perhaps otherwise constructively directed) emotions, into useless vitriol and conflict. Also stressed out combat-mode people purchase more, and think less about it. So, a harmful way to bolster consumer economy. Also it's incorrect to say "gender equality" is not an issue "in Asia". It's just you don't understand how it is. In China, Mao made women and men equal before feminism "liberated" Western women. But of course, "the West got there first" and better -- Oldest fake narrative in the book, buddy.

dang 9y ago
I'm sure you have some good points in there but could you please not cross into flamewar? It's against the rules here, because it destroys thoughtful discussion and poisons the community. If you'd read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow them, we'd appreciate it. Don't miss this one: Comments should get more civil and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
- objectcreate 9y ago
  OK. I guess I should stay away from commenting here. Because I'm just a flamethrower it seems. This is not the right forum for me.
wpietri 9y ago
It's true that in the socialist era, Mao and others really pushed for progress in gender equality. To their great credit! But beginning with pro-market reforms, a lot of that progress has been lost: https://cpianalysis.org/2017/10/23/the-struggle-for-gender-equality-in-xis-new-era/ https://cpianalysis.org/2017/10/23/the-struggle-for-gender-e... I also think the rest of your critique doesn't really hold together. You seem to be playing both sides of your ambivalence on gender equality. And for somebody opposed to one culture criticizing another, you seem awfully willing to be very vigorous in criticizing another culture.
- bmarkovic 9y ago
  Not just in China but in post-socialist Europe as well. Male chauvinism goes hand in hand with nationalist chauvinism and is the one of the first things to resurface back into the social norm as part of post-socialist social reform in all these countries. Still, in the post-post-socialism (i.e. when the society recovered from the right-wing dominance of transition years) many of these returned to these values and I bet if one would to do an earnest comparison (which Western media rarely want, too much bias) they'd probably be able to count significantly more females in high politics, enterprise management and even entrepreneurship than in places like the USA, Ireland, Switzerland or other more conservative western countries. In some of those countries, like Croatia and Serbia (even if they'd hate to admit it), even the right has been pushed, partly by inherited social norms and partly by strong female presence in the left to de-masculinise as well. Hence the female right-wing president in Croatia and the far-right lesbian prime minister in Serbia.

toephu2 9y ago

I think objectcreate has a lot of good points. Did you know in China almost no women change their last name to their husband's upon marriage (and it's been this way long before feminism even became a thing in the West)? Whereas today in the "progressive" West it is still expected that women change their last name to their husband's and most do.

whooshee 9y ago
Yes, modern Chinese women would be offended if you call them Mrs (husband's surname)
yorwba 9y ago
But children usually bear their father's surname, and if they don't, there's the assumption something's wrong with the father's side. (E.g. his name is not known, or they divorced before birth.) I think it is silly to try to compare across cultures by looking for the presence or absence of specific customs, because you'll always be biased by your awareness of practices in your own culture, and ignorance of those in a different culture.
AlbertoGP 9y ago
> Whereas today in the "progressive" West it is still expected that women change their last name to their husband's and most do. Not in Spain, where everyone keeps their last names and it was traditionally so before feminism. Children get two last names, traditionally the first from the father and then from the mother, but the order can be reversed.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

wyclif 9y ago

Gender equality is pretty much a Western thing, and specifically an American obsession. In Asian countries it's not a big deal. I'm living in SE Asia now and can attest to this.

threatofrain 8y ago
Many medical institutions will ask if you prefer a female or male doctor. Same with psychologist. What does it matter that we might consider the gender of the medical practitioner or psychologist? Are we next going to consider racial interactions as relevant to medical efficacy?

whooshee 9y ago

China is really different from Japan/Korea when regarding at gender. Women were called to hold up the half the sky in China since the very beginning. And nowadays girls are just equally demanded to be excellent at STEM. I guess the reason is China had few revolutions while Japan and Korea were basically reforming themselves.