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> Do we shut down the open source project? Do we make the algorithms illegal and have a repeat of the fight of whether or not mathematics and programming is fr

by bb88 9y ago

> Do we shut down the open source project? Do we make the algorithms illegal and have a repeat of the fight of whether or not mathematics and programming is free speech? Actually, it's quite simple. The SEC and IRS could go after the exchanges. If BTC can't be converted to US Dollars BTC is worthless on its face. BTC only has value if it can be exchanged to another currency.

koonsolo 9y ago
Hi, maybe you noticed already, but the world is bigger than US alone.
- bb88 9y ago
  So your snark aside, China and India have already banned BTC [1] [2]. That's over a third of the world [3] right there. [1] http://www.scmp.com/news/china/economy/article/2132119/beijing-bans-bitcoin-when-did-it-all-go-wrong-cryptocurrencies http://www.scmp.com/news/china/economy/article/2132119/beiji... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2018/04/05/good-luck-buying-bitcoin-in-india-as-central-banker-bans/#3021d8ec2996 https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2018/04/05/good-luck-... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population#/media/File:World_population_percentage.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population#/media/File:W...
  - koonsolo 9y ago
    Sorry for the snark, it was a rough morning (which is no excuse). The BTC ban in China needs to be nuanced: 'While private parties can hold and trade bitcoins in China, regulation prohibits financial firms like banks from doing the same.' see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country... India also doesn't seem to have a law in place to really ban it. Wikipedia has a nice map that shows only a few small states really banned bitcoin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory#/media/File:Legal_status_of_bitcoin.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country... I support the current stance of the US government on cryptocurrencies, because I think it's a sane way to approach this new technology, although there is a lot of speculation going on. I assume EU is going to have the same point of view more or less.
    - bb88 9y ago
      I'm quoting this from one of the articles I linked above in the gp: "With the announcement that it plans to block all websites related to cryptocurrency trading and initial coin offerings – including foreign platforms – Beijing has left no one in any doubt of its position on the highly volatile commodity." The Economic Times of India talks about banking regulations surrounding bitcoin [1]: "RBI, while announcing its first bi-monthly monetary policy for the FY 2018-19, has announced that any entity regulated by them such as banks, wallets etc. shall not deal with or provide services to any individual or business entities for buying or selling of cryptocurrency such as bitcoins." If you're going to invest in BTC, you're most likely going to do it through your bank account. Banning banks from working with crytocurrency exchanges is a big step in that direction because it severely impacts your ability to participate in those exchanges. And that gets me back to the original point. A country just needs to attack the exchanges. BTC is only worth something if you can exchange it for something else. [1] https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/wealth/personal-finance-news/your-bank-will-not-allow-you-to-buy-bitcoins-anymore/articleshow/63627123.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/wealth/personal-finance...
      - koonsolo 9y ago
        > BTC is only worth something if you can exchange it for something else. This is not what you are claiming. You are claiming that BTC is only worth something if it can be exchanged for a local currency through financial institutions. If I can earn cryptocurrencies with my Twitch stream donations, and I can buy my drugs online, why wouldn't it have any value? That's what a currency is all about, isn't it? There is no (central) bank or financial institution involved, which is exactly what we are aiming at. > If you're going to invest in BTC, you're most likely going to do it through your bank account. The main idea of BTC is not as an investment. It's like saying companies are all about stocks and not about the value they produce.
        bb88 9y ago
        > This is not what you are claiming. You are claiming that BTC is only worth something if it can be exchanged for a local currency through financial institutions. Nope. Look at the top of thread. I made it clear there. > If I can earn cryptocurrencies with my Twitch stream donations, and I can buy my drugs online, why wouldn't it have any value? When a casino changes out its chips, the old ones lose their value after a certain date. The casino will not exchange them for cash anymore, making the face value worthless. BTC is very much like a casino chip. It only has value because someone is willing to exchange it for currency. If the exchange goes away, the face value goes away.
isaiahg 9y ago
Okay lets do that. How do they enforce it? Many of the biggest exchanges are not in the US. There are some exchanges that are decentralized themselves and can't be taken down easily. Many countries are embracing cryptocurrencies like Germany, South Korea, Japan, and will offer safe havens for exchanges. Of course cryptocurrency can always go underground and hid their traffic. Technically you could even run a cryptocurrency network through email. Technology has and will always move faster than governments. On another front, it might be hard to galvanize support to ban cryptocurrency when many of the movers and shakers have embraced it. IBM is the largest tech provider to the financial sector and is working on more than 400 blockchain projects and runs its own cross border payment system that may already process 60% of all cross-border payments in the South Pacific using the Lumen crypto. Word is also going around the JPMorgan might start up bitcoin futures trading soon. It seems like to me that the old world and gatekeepers have already decided that this is the way the world is moving.
- bb88 9y ago
  > Okay lets do that. How do they enforce it? There are some exchanges that are decentralized themselves and can't be taken down easily. So your argument is "You can make it illegal all you want, but we'll just move it underground and it will never die." Arguments like that do little to win over regulators. The last time I checked in the US, cryptocurrency fell within the jurisdiction of the CFTC, IRS, SEC, and FinCEN agencies. Three of those agencies have already made policies regarding cryptocurrencies without needing an act of congress. > On another front, it might be hard to galvanize support to ban cryptocurrency when many of the movers and shakers have embraced it. Again, this argument is not compelling enough. Popular things once done by people or companies have been made illegal time and time again. Any argument that allows companies to profit off illegal activities (money laundering comes to mind) in a legal way without regulation, is DOA.

by bb88 9y ago

koonsolo 9y ago

Hi, maybe you noticed already, but the world is bigger than US alone.

bb88 9y ago
So your snark aside, China and India have already banned BTC [1] [2]. That's over a third of the world [3] right there. [1] http://www.scmp.com/news/china/economy/article/2132119/beijing-bans-bitcoin-when-did-it-all-go-wrong-cryptocurrencies http://www.scmp.com/news/china/economy/article/2132119/beiji... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2018/04/05/good-luck-buying-bitcoin-in-india-as-central-banker-bans/#3021d8ec2996 https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2018/04/05/good-luck-... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population#/media/File:World_population_percentage.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population#/media/File:W...
- koonsolo 9y ago
  Sorry for the snark, it was a rough morning (which is no excuse). The BTC ban in China needs to be nuanced: 'While private parties can hold and trade bitcoins in China, regulation prohibits financial firms like banks from doing the same.' see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country... India also doesn't seem to have a law in place to really ban it. Wikipedia has a nice map that shows only a few small states really banned bitcoin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory#/media/File:Legal_status_of_bitcoin.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country... I support the current stance of the US government on cryptocurrencies, because I think it's a sane way to approach this new technology, although there is a lot of speculation going on. I assume EU is going to have the same point of view more or less.
  - bb88 9y ago
    I'm quoting this from one of the articles I linked above in the gp: "With the announcement that it plans to block all websites related to cryptocurrency trading and initial coin offerings – including foreign platforms – Beijing has left no one in any doubt of its position on the highly volatile commodity." The Economic Times of India talks about banking regulations surrounding bitcoin [1]: "RBI, while announcing its first bi-monthly monetary policy for the FY 2018-19, has announced that any entity regulated by them such as banks, wallets etc. shall not deal with or provide services to any individual or business entities for buying or selling of cryptocurrency such as bitcoins." If you're going to invest in BTC, you're most likely going to do it through your bank account. Banning banks from working with crytocurrency exchanges is a big step in that direction because it severely impacts your ability to participate in those exchanges. And that gets me back to the original point. A country just needs to attack the exchanges. BTC is only worth something if you can exchange it for something else. [1] https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/wealth/personal-finance-news/your-bank-will-not-allow-you-to-buy-bitcoins-anymore/articleshow/63627123.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/wealth/personal-finance...
    - koonsolo 9y ago
      > BTC is only worth something if you can exchange it for something else. This is not what you are claiming. You are claiming that BTC is only worth something if it can be exchanged for a local currency through financial institutions. If I can earn cryptocurrencies with my Twitch stream donations, and I can buy my drugs online, why wouldn't it have any value? That's what a currency is all about, isn't it? There is no (central) bank or financial institution involved, which is exactly what we are aiming at. > If you're going to invest in BTC, you're most likely going to do it through your bank account. The main idea of BTC is not as an investment. It's like saying companies are all about stocks and not about the value they produce.
      - bb88 9y ago
        > This is not what you are claiming. You are claiming that BTC is only worth something if it can be exchanged for a local currency through financial institutions. Nope. Look at the top of thread. I made it clear there. > If I can earn cryptocurrencies with my Twitch stream donations, and I can buy my drugs online, why wouldn't it have any value? When a casino changes out its chips, the old ones lose their value after a certain date. The casino will not exchange them for cash anymore, making the face value worthless. BTC is very much like a casino chip. It only has value because someone is willing to exchange it for currency. If the exchange goes away, the face value goes away.

isaiahg 9y ago

Okay lets do that. How do they enforce it? Many of the biggest exchanges are not in the US. There are some exchanges that are decentralized themselves and can't be taken down easily. Many countries are embracing cryptocurrencies like Germany, South Korea, Japan, and will offer safe havens for exchanges. Of course cryptocurrency can always go underground and hid their traffic. Technically you could even run a cryptocurrency network through email. Technology has and will always move faster than governments. On another front, it might be hard to galvanize support to ban cryptocurrency when many of the movers and shakers have embraced it. IBM is the largest tech provider to the financial sector and is working on more than 400 blockchain projects and runs its own cross border payment system that may already process 60% of all cross-border payments in the South Pacific using the Lumen crypto. Word is also going around the JPMorgan might start up bitcoin futures trading soon. It seems like to me that the old world and gatekeepers have already decided that this is the way the world is moving.

bb88 9y ago
> Okay lets do that. How do they enforce it? There are some exchanges that are decentralized themselves and can't be taken down easily. So your argument is "You can make it illegal all you want, but we'll just move it underground and it will never die." Arguments like that do little to win over regulators. The last time I checked in the US, cryptocurrency fell within the jurisdiction of the CFTC, IRS, SEC, and FinCEN agencies. Three of those agencies have already made policies regarding cryptocurrencies without needing an act of congress. > On another front, it might be hard to galvanize support to ban cryptocurrency when many of the movers and shakers have embraced it. Again, this argument is not compelling enough. Popular things once done by people or companies have been made illegal time and time again. Any argument that allows companies to profit off illegal activities (money laundering comes to mind) in a legal way without regulation, is DOA.