14 ms·

America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

82 points by lunchbreak 8y ago

ShadowFaxSam 8y ago
Its refreshing to read a hopeful and positive piece about the future of America. So much has been written of the state of the great divide between races, conservatives and liberals, heartland America and the coastal liberal cities, republican vs democrats. At least out of all this turmoil there is a sense of activism and involvement in politics I have not seen in years. >“If you want to create a great community, you move someplace that needs your help,”
- whatever_dude 8y ago
  Activism and involvement, yes, but born out of growing polarization.
ggm 8y ago
I found it hard to read this article as having grounds to draw the positive conclusion from it's own premises: the inherently racist views of communities with low real immigration despite obvious dependencies on the immigration present bodes very badly, as does the underlying false optimism of a new wave of political consciousness. I suspect the new America is an isolationist America
- TheAdamAndChe 8y ago
  Why would immigrants move to where they're not wanted? Also, how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? Many of our country's rural trends are a pushback against multiculturalism, which pushes the idea that there is no right or wrong way to live as long as you don't hurt other people. Common languages, religions, norms, customs, and beliefs simply don't matter. But how can a sense of community form when you can't even talk to your neighbors? Why is this pushback being met with cries of racism?
  - krapp 8y ago
    >Also, how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? When the desire to maintain a common identity is based on racial or ethnic identity, and that desire excludes the possibility that races or ethnicities other than your own can, or should, be a part your community, then that desire can be accurately described as racist or at best xenophobic. >Many of our country's rural trends are a pushback against multiculturalism, which pushes the idea that there is no right or wrong way to live as long as you don't hurt other people. Common languages, religions, norms, customs, and beliefs simply don't matter. I don't see what's supposed to be wrong with that premise. >But how can a sense of community form when you can't even talk to your neighbors? Why is this pushback being met with cries of racism? It already has, and does - and that sense of community as it includes people of different races, ethnicities and religions, is precisely what is being pushed against. Talking about language is a red herring - this "push against multiculturalism" is also a push against immigrants who speak English perfectly well, and who integrate perfectly well into their communities, and are law abiding citizens, but are not considered white and may not be Christian. Until the demographics of the country began to shift to the point that the majority status and political power of wh - sorry - people of European descent - began to be threatened, this didn't seem to be an issue. It is clearly a movement based on an attempt to normalize the redefinition of culture and community around race and ethnicity.
    - TheAdamAndChe 8y ago
      > When the desire to maintain a common identity is based on racial or ethnic identity... then that desire can be accurately described as racist or at best xenophobic. This would be true and understandable if immigration wasn't so incredibly skewed towards Mexicans, but it is skewed. There are over 11 million illegal immigrants in a country of 300 million, the majority of which are Mexican/Latino. That is an incredibly large amount. > Until the demographics of the country began to shift to the point that the majority status and political power of wh - sorry - people of European descent - began to be threatened, this didn't seem to be an issue. It is clearly a movement based on an attempt to normalize the redefinition of culture and community around race and ethnicity. I find it funny how you blame white people for the hate, then blame them for the redefinition of culture and community around race and ethnicity... right after blaming white people for some perceived degradation of our country...
humanrebar 8y ago
> What explains the gulf between most Americans’ hopeful outlook on areas and institutions they know directly and their despair about the country they know only through the news? In their anthropological foray, they notice that people generally get along with local people in local contexts. That's certainly true. A lot of the acrimony, tribalism, and fear comes from the growing divisiveness of American culture at large. The fact that The Atlantic needs to don some pith helmets and mix with the locals is itself indicative of the problem. Kudos to the authors for actually doing so, but these aren't migrants trying to learn how to be American. These are people born and raised in America who are somehow on the outside of what The Atlantic considers to be America. > There is of course evidence that this has happened, in the form of the bigotry that has been unleashed since 2017. And, ironically, The Atlantic ignores the bigotry [1] it contributes to the situation. The Kevin Williamson incident [2] is very recent and is literally a failed attempt to actually include different kinds of perspectives in The Atlantic. And it seems the institutes of journalism aren't exactly interested, in general, in doing the journalism to accurately represent Williamson's views on the matter [3]. By the way, Kevin Williamson is from these places and writes with a unique take on how these places are and how they could be better. So when you live in these places and you see hatred for people like you, how are you supposed to be optimistic and excited about the prospects for your children and grandchildren? [1] "stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own" http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bigotry http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bigotry [2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-the-twitter-mob-came-for-me-1524234850 https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-the-twitter-mob-came-for-m... [3] https://www.weeklystandard.com/kevin-williamson/what-new-york-magazine-told-kevin-williamson-about-abortion https://www.weeklystandard.com/kevin-williamson/what-new-yor...
- brandonmenc 8y ago
  Thank you for using the correct definition of "bigotry." The general population seems to confuse "bigot" only with "racist" or "sexist," for some reason.
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    They didn't though. Williamson wasn't fired because the Atlantic readers hate white conservative opinion writers, he was fired because Atlantic readers aren't very interested in his particular views.
spodek 8y ago
In a nutshell: Except for all the problems, this place is great! That's the way it's been since the start and likely will be as far as we can tell. Now let me tell you about how I traveled all over the place and talked to people who are the salt of the earth.
gerbilly 8y ago
>What explains the gulf between most Americans’ hopeful outlook on areas and institutions they know directly and their despair about the country they know only through the news? The fundamental attribution error[1] [1] http://ethicsunwrapped.utexas.edu/glossary/fundamental-attribution-error http://ethicsunwrapped.utexas.edu/glossary/fundamental-attri...
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  You pretty much summed up what I was thinking the entire time I was reading the article. The average person will say, "Oh yeah... WE'RE doing a GREAT job! We're doing what we need to do to make progress, and things are improving for us." And then they'll say, "It's all those OTHER people and places that are being jerks!" I wish people could better see where other people are coming from so to speak.
WhompingWindows 8y ago
Of course this is true. If anyone is naive enough to believe America is a hellish wasteland of terrible politics, and that that transfers to overall Quality of Life metrics for society as a whole, they might be surprised by this. Any honest look at data on employment, QoL, services available for free or very cheaply in the lives of the average citizen, there are many reasons for optimism. Personally, I try to cut from my media diet any purely speculative or fear-driven content. Instead of telling us what might happen in the future if this policy comes down the pipe, maybe tell us about what's already happened recently, what the data shows us about the most important issues. To me, these are issues like the opioid epidemic, not what a politician wrote on Twitter recently. Another example would be focusing extensively on negative coverage, like opioids, and ignoring positive trends made in science, technology, and culture - who wants to read about the daily incremental improvements in life?
- chongli 8y ago
  I look at the opioid epidemic as a symptom, not the problem itself. The broader problem is globalization and the local inequalities it's producing. The Heartland of the United States is being hollowed out and turned into a desolate wasteland, economically speaking. The steady advances in economic productivity are accruing to an ever-shrinking proportion of the population. The media-political circus should also be taken seriously as a problem because it distracts people from focusing on the real issues. The recent focus on privacy on Facebook is a good example of that. The real problem with Facebook is that it's designed to be addictive, that it's making people depressed and angry, and that it's politically polarizing people who ought to have common interests.
  - kadenshep 8y ago
    > The broader problem is globalization No it isn't. >the local inequalities it's producing. That's not caused by globalism.
  - dandersh 8y ago
    Raising the specter of globalization ultimately is just hand-waving the problem away. For example, when are we determining that globalization began? If we claim in the 1990's than how does that explain a similar hollowing out effect suffered by urban black America in the previous decades? If we decide to go back to Columbus, well that certainly isn't going to explain anything. Unfortunately many explanations look outward or cast blame on shadowy groups ("The Elites") and refuse to look at decisions made by Americans themselves. There is no consideration of voting against interests in favor of culture war issues. No discussion of the movement away from organized labor and activism. Refusal to evaluate the consequences of an "Every Day Low Price" consumerism that demands the lowest cost of products. I'm not trying to absolve globalization of responsibility, rather I'm trying to say that it's not helpful to point the finger at it and refuse to look deeper.
exelius 8y ago
I agree with this sentiment, with some caveats. I think Americans are totally done with identity politics based on race, gender, religion, sexuality, etc. We’ve had those arguments and the battle lines were drawn, but at the end of the day we all just live our lives. There seems to have developed somewhat of a “gentleman’s agreement” in most public spaces (explicitly political forums like protests notwithstanding) along be lines of “don’t provoke me for my religious beliefs and I won’t provoke you for your homosexuality”. I do still think we have a long way towards navigating those differences as they play out on an interpersonal level. A classic example is sexual harassment in the workplace: women are justifiably upset by it, but men are also upset at the blowback. Fact is, it’s pretty easy for a man to be threatening to a woman without realizing he is — most men don’t understand how much the sheer size/strength difference intimidates most women when emotions get heated. Navigating this environment takes empathy from both sides and is something that has to be established on a person-to-person basis. IMO this is just the new normal. There was a time when people could hide their differences, but with social media and such I’m not sure that’s reasonable. So we actually have to learn to navigate the differences rather than pretending they don’t exist. That, in my mind, is progress.
- ManFromUranus 8y ago
  >I think Americans are totally done with identity politics based on race, gender, religion, sexuality I don't see that happening at all, that would be nice, but that's not the general direction. I think things are getting worse as far as that's concerned. Society is polarizing and separating into different groups. At this point it is almost impossible to talk to the "other side" about certain issues. There is MASSIVE distrust of the government and authority that is getting increasing day by day. I think America is becoming a polarized, low-trust society with no common interests and the future looks like regional secession to me. Sub-state entities seceding from other states, states seceding from the greater US etc.
  - stronglikedan 8y ago
    > Society is polarizing and separating into different groups. At this point it is almost impossible to talk to the "other side" about certain issues. I only see that online. The many, many people I engage with in real life rarely act like they are in a biased information silo. The ability to hide behind a computer screen just brings out the worst in people, IMHO.

82 points by lunchbreak 8y ago

Its refreshing to read a hopeful and positive piece about the future of America. So much has been written of the state of the great divide between races, conservatives and liberals, heartland America and the coastal liberal cities, republican vs democrats. At least out of all this turmoil there is a sense of activism and involvement in politics I have not seen in years. >“If you want to create a great community, you move someplace that needs your help,”

whatever_dude 8y ago
Activism and involvement, yes, but born out of growing polarization.

ggm 8y ago

I found it hard to read this article as having grounds to draw the positive conclusion from it's own premises: the inherently racist views of communities with low real immigration despite obvious dependencies on the immigration present bodes very badly, as does the underlying false optimism of a new wave of political consciousness. I suspect the new America is an isolationist America

TheAdamAndChe 8y ago
Why would immigrants move to where they're not wanted? Also, how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? Many of our country's rural trends are a pushback against multiculturalism, which pushes the idea that there is no right or wrong way to live as long as you don't hurt other people. Common languages, religions, norms, customs, and beliefs simply don't matter. But how can a sense of community form when you can't even talk to your neighbors? Why is this pushback being met with cries of racism?
- krapp 8y ago
  >Also, how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? When the desire to maintain a common identity is based on racial or ethnic identity, and that desire excludes the possibility that races or ethnicities other than your own can, or should, be a part your community, then that desire can be accurately described as racist or at best xenophobic. >Many of our country's rural trends are a pushback against multiculturalism, which pushes the idea that there is no right or wrong way to live as long as you don't hurt other people. Common languages, religions, norms, customs, and beliefs simply don't matter. I don't see what's supposed to be wrong with that premise. >But how can a sense of community form when you can't even talk to your neighbors? Why is this pushback being met with cries of racism? It already has, and does - and that sense of community as it includes people of different races, ethnicities and religions, is precisely what is being pushed against. Talking about language is a red herring - this "push against multiculturalism" is also a push against immigrants who speak English perfectly well, and who integrate perfectly well into their communities, and are law abiding citizens, but are not considered white and may not be Christian. Until the demographics of the country began to shift to the point that the majority status and political power of wh - sorry - people of European descent - began to be threatened, this didn't seem to be an issue. It is clearly a movement based on an attempt to normalize the redefinition of culture and community around race and ethnicity.
  - TheAdamAndChe 8y ago
    > When the desire to maintain a common identity is based on racial or ethnic identity... then that desire can be accurately described as racist or at best xenophobic. This would be true and understandable if immigration wasn't so incredibly skewed towards Mexicans, but it is skewed. There are over 11 million illegal immigrants in a country of 300 million, the majority of which are Mexican/Latino. That is an incredibly large amount. > Until the demographics of the country began to shift to the point that the majority status and political power of wh - sorry - people of European descent - began to be threatened, this didn't seem to be an issue. It is clearly a movement based on an attempt to normalize the redefinition of culture and community around race and ethnicity. I find it funny how you blame white people for the hate, then blame them for the redefinition of culture and community around race and ethnicity... right after blaming white people for some perceived degradation of our country...

humanrebar 8y ago

> What explains the gulf between most Americans’ hopeful outlook on areas and institutions they know directly and their despair about the country they know only through the news? In their anthropological foray, they notice that people generally get along with local people in local contexts. That's certainly true. A lot of the acrimony, tribalism, and fear comes from the growing divisiveness of American culture at large. The fact that The Atlantic needs to don some pith helmets and mix with the locals is itself indicative of the problem. Kudos to the authors for actually doing so, but these aren't migrants trying to learn how to be American. These are people born and raised in America who are somehow on the outside of what The Atlantic considers to be America. > There is of course evidence that this has happened, in the form of the bigotry that has been unleashed since 2017. And, ironically, The Atlantic ignores the bigotry [1] it contributes to the situation. The Kevin Williamson incident [2] is very recent and is literally a failed attempt to actually include different kinds of perspectives in The Atlantic. And it seems the institutes of journalism aren't exactly interested, in general, in doing the journalism to accurately represent Williamson's views on the matter [3]. By the way, Kevin Williamson is from these places and writes with a unique take on how these places are and how they could be better. So when you live in these places and you see hatred for people like you, how are you supposed to be optimistic and excited about the prospects for your children and grandchildren? [1] "stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own" http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bigotry http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bigotry [2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-the-twitter-mob-came-for-me-1524234850 https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-the-twitter-mob-came-for-m... [3] https://www.weeklystandard.com/kevin-williamson/what-new-york-magazine-told-kevin-williamson-about-abortion https://www.weeklystandard.com/kevin-williamson/what-new-yor...

brandonmenc 8y ago
Thank you for using the correct definition of "bigotry." The general population seems to confuse "bigot" only with "racist" or "sexist," for some reason.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  They didn't though. Williamson wasn't fired because the Atlantic readers hate white conservative opinion writers, he was fired because Atlantic readers aren't very interested in his particular views.

spodek 8y ago

In a nutshell: Except for all the problems, this place is great! That's the way it's been since the start and likely will be as far as we can tell. Now let me tell you about how I traveled all over the place and talked to people who are the salt of the earth.

gerbilly 8y ago

>What explains the gulf between most Americans’ hopeful outlook on areas and institutions they know directly and their despair about the country they know only through the news? The fundamental attribution error[1] [1] http://ethicsunwrapped.utexas.edu/glossary/fundamental-attribution-error http://ethicsunwrapped.utexas.edu/glossary/fundamental-attri...

bilbo0s 8y ago
You pretty much summed up what I was thinking the entire time I was reading the article. The average person will say, "Oh yeah... WE'RE doing a GREAT job! We're doing what we need to do to make progress, and things are improving for us." And then they'll say, "It's all those OTHER people and places that are being jerks!" I wish people could better see where other people are coming from so to speak.

WhompingWindows 8y ago

Of course this is true. If anyone is naive enough to believe America is a hellish wasteland of terrible politics, and that that transfers to overall Quality of Life metrics for society as a whole, they might be surprised by this. Any honest look at data on employment, QoL, services available for free or very cheaply in the lives of the average citizen, there are many reasons for optimism. Personally, I try to cut from my media diet any purely speculative or fear-driven content. Instead of telling us what might happen in the future if this policy comes down the pipe, maybe tell us about what's already happened recently, what the data shows us about the most important issues. To me, these are issues like the opioid epidemic, not what a politician wrote on Twitter recently. Another example would be focusing extensively on negative coverage, like opioids, and ignoring positive trends made in science, technology, and culture - who wants to read about the daily incremental improvements in life?

chongli 8y ago
I look at the opioid epidemic as a symptom, not the problem itself. The broader problem is globalization and the local inequalities it's producing. The Heartland of the United States is being hollowed out and turned into a desolate wasteland, economically speaking. The steady advances in economic productivity are accruing to an ever-shrinking proportion of the population. The media-political circus should also be taken seriously as a problem because it distracts people from focusing on the real issues. The recent focus on privacy on Facebook is a good example of that. The real problem with Facebook is that it's designed to be addictive, that it's making people depressed and angry, and that it's politically polarizing people who ought to have common interests.
- kadenshep 8y ago
  > The broader problem is globalization No it isn't. >the local inequalities it's producing. That's not caused by globalism.
- dandersh 8y ago
  Raising the specter of globalization ultimately is just hand-waving the problem away. For example, when are we determining that globalization began? If we claim in the 1990's than how does that explain a similar hollowing out effect suffered by urban black America in the previous decades? If we decide to go back to Columbus, well that certainly isn't going to explain anything. Unfortunately many explanations look outward or cast blame on shadowy groups ("The Elites") and refuse to look at decisions made by Americans themselves. There is no consideration of voting against interests in favor of culture war issues. No discussion of the movement away from organized labor and activism. Refusal to evaluate the consequences of an "Every Day Low Price" consumerism that demands the lowest cost of products. I'm not trying to absolve globalization of responsibility, rather I'm trying to say that it's not helpful to point the finger at it and refuse to look deeper.

exelius 8y ago

I agree with this sentiment, with some caveats. I think Americans are totally done with identity politics based on race, gender, religion, sexuality, etc. We’ve had those arguments and the battle lines were drawn, but at the end of the day we all just live our lives. There seems to have developed somewhat of a “gentleman’s agreement” in most public spaces (explicitly political forums like protests notwithstanding) along be lines of “don’t provoke me for my religious beliefs and I won’t provoke you for your homosexuality”. I do still think we have a long way towards navigating those differences as they play out on an interpersonal level. A classic example is sexual harassment in the workplace: women are justifiably upset by it, but men are also upset at the blowback. Fact is, it’s pretty easy for a man to be threatening to a woman without realizing he is — most men don’t understand how much the sheer size/strength difference intimidates most women when emotions get heated. Navigating this environment takes empathy from both sides and is something that has to be established on a person-to-person basis. IMO this is just the new normal. There was a time when people could hide their differences, but with social media and such I’m not sure that’s reasonable. So we actually have to learn to navigate the differences rather than pretending they don’t exist. That, in my mind, is progress.

ManFromUranus 8y ago
>I think Americans are totally done with identity politics based on race, gender, religion, sexuality I don't see that happening at all, that would be nice, but that's not the general direction. I think things are getting worse as far as that's concerned. Society is polarizing and separating into different groups. At this point it is almost impossible to talk to the "other side" about certain issues. There is MASSIVE distrust of the government and authority that is getting increasing day by day. I think America is becoming a polarized, low-trust society with no common interests and the future looks like regional secession to me. Sub-state entities seceding from other states, states seceding from the greater US etc.
- stronglikedan 8y ago
  > Society is polarizing and separating into different groups. At this point it is almost impossible to talk to the "other side" about certain issues. I only see that online. The many, many people I engage with in real life rarely act like they are in a biased information silo. The ability to hide behind a computer screen just brings out the worst in people, IMHO.