3 ms·

It's not necessarily that Seveneves felt 'flat' so much as the second half presents people as basically un changed after millennia which in some cases is over-

It's not necessarily that Seveneves felt 'flat' so much as the second half presents people as basically un changed after millennia which in some cases is over-lookable and in other cases deeply deeply lacking in empathy.

toasterlovin 9y ago
But hadn’t the pingers started to develop adaptations to ocean life? And both the diggers and the pingers would have a hard time generating novel adaptations because they were severely population constrained (smaller population = lower total generation of mutations). And anyway, 5000 years is enough time for subpopulations to diverge, but it’s not enough time for subspecies to emerge.
- Avshalom 9y ago
  The spacers adherence to the past struck me as un realistic. The Diggers though I can't even think of their millennia, the absolute iron rule they had to maintain to survive... the inescapable fear... well I'm crying as I type this comment.
  - kbenson 9y ago
    > The spacers adherence to the past struck me as un realistic. I don't know. If you are the last remnants of a great civilization, I can see that being elevated to the point of religion or near religion, which can help things persist for quite a long time, since it's longevity is no longer based on logic.
    - Avshalom 9y ago
      It's not the spacers that make me break into tears a year after I read the book though. Realistic or not they had thousands of years more freedom than the Diggers.
      - kbenson 9y ago
        It's harsh and it's sad, but is it really all that much worse than the many tens of thousands of years where humans lived in small tribes, sometimes in harsh ecosystems, with disease and pain and local conflict? For the vast majority of our history, humans have lived far worse off than now. Sure, it's easy to tell yourself they were happy living in a simpler time in and some cases a tropical paradise, but losing most your siblings in early childhood and passing away yourself at the old age of 32 because you scraped your leg and tf got infected doesn't sound all that great to me. That said, people of the past probably were happy. Happiness at your condition and situation seems to be highly relative. To us, it looks like a horrible punishment, but to them, it's just life, and losing your friends and family to illness and accident was likely as accepted as the fact today that you'll at some point die of old age.
        Avshalom 9y ago
        Ten thousand years ago they could walk away, they might die but they wouldn't kill everyone that they could conceive of. The resources weren't obviously limited, the idea that everything they could conceive of would be lost wouldn't have occurred. The absolute limitation, the sacrifice, the need to keep sacrificing for un told generations... THEY HAD NO SKY. They had no future but theory... I'm not trying to convince you. I'm just saying: it was traumatizing to me.
    - gruturo 9y ago
      ...and it boils down to a glorified horoscope. Dinans are impulsive Teklans are reliable etc etc. sigh.
      - rtkwe 9y ago
        I look at it this way, each member of that race grew up in a culture that practically deifies the Eves and the choices they made wrt disposition and traits, given that the traits are partially drilled into each generation as they grow up. Toss a bit of (epi)genetic predetermination and it's pretty easy to see how these groups wind up conforming to stereotypes like that. Also we're only getting Kathree's view into things too so who's to say how accurate the strict caricatures actually are?
- rtkwe 9y ago
  They would have likely (almost definitely since it was a government project) had access to similar gene editing tech to the Ark.
kbenson 9y ago
I admit, I also felt the characterization of people in the second half was upsetting, but more upsetting to me was the enormous loss of diversity, and I thought that somewhat explained the relations. These people aren't humans as we know them, they are walking scientific caricatures of them come to life. From that, I didn't really feel it was a statement about "people" per-se, as much as it was a way for him to manipulate the situation in a way where he could make wild predictions about millennia in the future while skirting reality fairly loosely. All quirks and weirdness can basically be explained as "see situation".
- Avshalom 9y ago
  As extreme a genetic bottle neck as he invents I still feel like his future is overly distinguished. But as I say in siblings: thats not what wrecks me.

toasterlovin 9y ago

But hadn’t the pingers started to develop adaptations to ocean life? And both the diggers and the pingers would have a hard time generating novel adaptations because they were severely population constrained (smaller population = lower total generation of mutations). And anyway, 5000 years is enough time for subpopulations to diverge, but it’s not enough time for subspecies to emerge.

Avshalom 9y ago
The spacers adherence to the past struck me as un realistic. The Diggers though I can't even think of their millennia, the absolute iron rule they had to maintain to survive... the inescapable fear... well I'm crying as I type this comment.
- kbenson 9y ago
  > The spacers adherence to the past struck me as un realistic. I don't know. If you are the last remnants of a great civilization, I can see that being elevated to the point of religion or near religion, which can help things persist for quite a long time, since it's longevity is no longer based on logic.
  - Avshalom 9y ago
    It's not the spacers that make me break into tears a year after I read the book though. Realistic or not they had thousands of years more freedom than the Diggers.
    - kbenson 9y ago
      It's harsh and it's sad, but is it really all that much worse than the many tens of thousands of years where humans lived in small tribes, sometimes in harsh ecosystems, with disease and pain and local conflict? For the vast majority of our history, humans have lived far worse off than now. Sure, it's easy to tell yourself they were happy living in a simpler time in and some cases a tropical paradise, but losing most your siblings in early childhood and passing away yourself at the old age of 32 because you scraped your leg and tf got infected doesn't sound all that great to me. That said, people of the past probably were happy. Happiness at your condition and situation seems to be highly relative. To us, it looks like a horrible punishment, but to them, it's just life, and losing your friends and family to illness and accident was likely as accepted as the fact today that you'll at some point die of old age.
      - Avshalom 9y ago
        Ten thousand years ago they could walk away, they might die but they wouldn't kill everyone that they could conceive of. The resources weren't obviously limited, the idea that everything they could conceive of would be lost wouldn't have occurred. The absolute limitation, the sacrifice, the need to keep sacrificing for un told generations... THEY HAD NO SKY. They had no future but theory... I'm not trying to convince you. I'm just saying: it was traumatizing to me.
  - gruturo 9y ago
    ...and it boils down to a glorified horoscope. Dinans are impulsive Teklans are reliable etc etc. sigh.
    - rtkwe 9y ago
      I look at it this way, each member of that race grew up in a culture that practically deifies the Eves and the choices they made wrt disposition and traits, given that the traits are partially drilled into each generation as they grow up. Toss a bit of (epi)genetic predetermination and it's pretty easy to see how these groups wind up conforming to stereotypes like that. Also we're only getting Kathree's view into things too so who's to say how accurate the strict caricatures actually are?
rtkwe 9y ago
They would have likely (almost definitely since it was a government project) had access to similar gene editing tech to the Ark.

kbenson 9y ago

I admit, I also felt the characterization of people in the second half was upsetting, but more upsetting to me was the enormous loss of diversity, and I thought that somewhat explained the relations. These people aren't humans as we know them, they are walking scientific caricatures of them come to life. From that, I didn't really feel it was a statement about "people" per-se, as much as it was a way for him to manipulate the situation in a way where he could make wild predictions about millennia in the future while skirting reality fairly loosely. All quirks and weirdness can basically be explained as "see situation".

Avshalom 9y ago
As extreme a genetic bottle neck as he invents I still feel like his future is overly distinguished. But as I say in siblings: thats not what wrecks me.