7 ms·

MobileCoin has raised $30M for private mobile payments

48 points by rms 8y ago

localhost3000 8y ago
Read about this one on Wired awhile back. Nice to see it making progress. Would love to see a succinct description of how this compares to / is better than the slew of other privacy coins...? Also, is there a first real use case in mind that doesn't involve a big established messaging app adopting it for payments? (that seems hard/complicated/requires a different skillset than building the software). In any event, congrats to the team. Smells like one of the better projects out there!
- rms 8y ago
  The main difference is that MobileCoin trusts Intel's SGX to create a platform that should be able to scale quickly on mobile. It also has a solution to allow for private key recovery in case you lose your phone. Zcash is more provably secure as it doesn't require trusting Intel's SGX but it's untenable on mobile right now as it's too computationally intensive. Monero and Dash are effectively anonymous for small transfers but for very large movements of money, the deep state can crack their tumbler algorithms. They provide good enough rather than verifiable anonymity. As CEO of the Signal Foundation, Moxie is in a unique position to encourage Signal protocol chat services to adopt something like MobileCoin. I would imagine that progression would go Signal -> WhatsApp, and that Signal would only reject MobileCoin if Moxie himself rejected MobileCoin. I think there isn't really a first use case other than an existing Signal protocol service adopting it.
gataca 8y ago
Can someone explain why the average user would prefer this over using venmo?
- RIMR 8y ago
  I guess you can now pay for illicit drugs using Signal without being tracked...
  - Jommi 8y ago
    How are you not being tracked when your transaction will be on the blockchain? I can't believe we're still at this argument.
- rms 8y ago
  Pessimistically, they won't. Optimistically, they solve consumer micropayments by allowing the unbanked to send and store money via WhatsApp.
  - gataca 8y ago
    Ok, that makes a lot of sense for the unbanked. I personally don’t know many people who are unbanked but maybe that number will grow in the future? I’m just trying to think about explaining this to some friends and why they should do this. Totally anonymous/private transactions between parties not having to use a bank?
    - armenarmen 8y ago
      From what I understand, the unbanked are really more of a thing in the developing world. The same crowd that'd be receiving micro loans were they looking to start small business in say rural Myanmar
      - HaloZero 8y ago
        Actually, I believe about 7-8% of the US is also unbanked. But that might be a specific to US (compared to other Western nations).
        rms 8y ago
        I lost a bank account last year and was unbanked for a little while. I really hate my customer service interactions with banks and would be quite happy if I could unbank myself. Life pro tip: If your Charles Schwab broker emails and says that they're wondering why your retirement savings are nothing but medical marijuana penny stocks and if you'd like to come in to talk about healthy portfolio management strategies, you should go into the local office and not ignore that email.
    - bfuller 8y ago
      Most people who use whatsapp live in the third world. Almost everyone uses it in Guatemala, and most people also don't have a bank there.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- coolspot 8y ago
  Street-level drug dealers would love secure and anonymous mobile payment platform for b2c and b2b settlements.
  - rms 8y ago
    In the USA at least, it still exists, and it's called cash. If cash were invented today, it would be illegal. For most small payments if not large transfers, in the USA consumers actually have the right to transact anonymously. Tracking micropayments publicly forever on a blockchain seems like a step backwards. Being able to track large transfers on a blockchain is one of the benefits of living in the world where the Byzantine General's Problem has been solved.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 8y ago
  I am an expat who doesn't have a local bank account in my country (Sweden). Thus I can't use Cash, Venmo, Apple Pay, etc. or their Swedish equivalent (Swish) to send money to local friends after we go out to eat, etc. Paypal is my only real alternative right now, and I will never use Paypal. This might allow me to easily send cash to my local friends.
- neuro_imager 8y ago
  Privacy - All transactions on venmo are easily accessed by venmo and other third parties. International transactions - Venmo is very limited in this regard. The unbanked - As stated already, there are about two billion unbanked people worldwide. Avoiding banking cartels. - We've fed these parasites enough, don't you think? Ease of use - A payment over a social network would be relatively seamless, particularly if you believe that apps allowing for rapid transfer between cryptocurrencies will be feasible (they are to some degree already).
- anubisresources 8y ago
  I live in Uganda and something like this will be a great mobile money alternative. MTN and their ilk take a huge chunk of change for mobile money, and if this is cheap it’ll catch on very quickly here. It should also make paying domestic staff and various contractors easier, and that’ll be nice.
  - darpa_escapee 8y ago
    They'll still have to pay the gatekeepers if they want to convert their cryptocurrency into something liquid.
    - anubisresources 8y ago
      Of course. As long as gatekeeper fees are less than the 3% charged for mobile money it’s a win
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
deft 8y ago
Mobilecoin is a token powered by a stellar smart contract. I don't care if Moxie or god himself is the lead of the project, because it's incredibly limited in scope (actually stellar advertises that as a feature of their smart contract platform) I doubt it will succeed. And no, a fancy mobile UI is not worth $30mil. Before someone replies with a quote from the whitepaper about what it /will/ do, don't bother. Until it's released I doubt any and all claims from the team. Because it's no different from any other high profile raise for a cryptocurrency and every single one so far has failed to deliver.
- vimota 8y ago
  This seems unduly negative. Genuinely, why do you think their use of Stellar's consensus algorithm makes it limited in scope? From my understanding they are just using their consensus not the actual network, and the use of SGX seems like a valid innovation. I'm not aware of any cryptocurrencies that can run on a "light" client without having to trust their node - is there one? I hear you on the delivering bit though.
- sebleon 8y ago
  > because it's incredibly limited in scope (...) I doubt it will succeed. What is the correct amount of scope to ensure success? I'm curious what's the logic behind your comment and negative predictions.
  - RIMR 8y ago
    I would say that being legitimately innovative and not exactly like every other ICO with hollow promises would be where I draw the line.
    - sebleon 8y ago
      > legitimately innovative > exactly like every other ICO > hollow promises These are subjective opinions, doesn't seem like a rigorous line.
    - sebleon 8y ago
marknadal 8y ago
I was talking to Moxie's cofounder, Joshua Goldbard, the other month about this. They strongly depend upon secure enclaves to achieve it. It seems like a rather clever use of DMCA related technology, potentially backfiring in the DMCA's face if it is extended to other use cases. However, using secure enclaves seems like chasing a fading rainbow. The tech doesn't work without trusting the enclave, yet if we trust it, we're re-centralized our trust in chip makers like Intel. Or worse, if it works extraordinarily well, I'm afraid DMCA related gangs will figure out how to lawyer those use cases out of existence in the same way they lawyer-ed in the tech to begin with. I'm glad Moxie & co. are trying though, somebody has to! I have been previously very skeptical about the claims made by Signal, though, but as long as the enclave works, then they seem to hold true.
- wskinner 8y ago
  Care to share what claims you were skeptical about?
- rms 8y ago
  For what it's worth, we also trust the NSA to have written and verified our most important cryptographic hash functions, leading to the first rule of crypto -- never roll your own novel hash function. I see this as the start of a community effort to verify Intel SGX. I imagine that the process of rolling out a consumer facing high stakes product on SGX involves external verification of SGX beyond what it's gone through before.
0xFFC 8y ago
The idea seems exactly like Electroneum.
- moe 8y ago
  Or Aeon. Or Phoneum. Or Telcoin. Or Status.im. Or a dozen other coins with near identical goals.
  - Canada 8y ago
    How are any of these things the same other than their claim to be "mobile"?
  - Dystoxin 8y ago
    Aeon – Is pretty much like any cryptocurrency in general. They are trying to act like Monero but fast payments and multiple transactions like Litecoin. So the only I thing I see similar about Aeon and Telcoin is that they are on a mobile friendly. (Pretty much has to be for major adoption) Status – Is an Ethereum-sending app, where you can send Ethereum and messages back and forth. Therefore, I would compare this more to PayPal, than Telcoin. Team is somewhat lackluster. In addition, this is about sending crypto between people (mainly Ethereum) and relates to Telcoin because it is on a mobile phone. Phoneum - is a decentralized cryptocurrency that operates on mobile devices via app only, empowered by blockchain technology. The app also comes with a built in miner. I honestly could not find too much and it is not listed on CoinMarketCap. If I had to compare this to another crypto, it would be Electroneum, not Telcoin. They are literally doing the same thing and have a patent pending on the mobile miner. Telcoin – is a cryptocurrency designed to facilitate digital asset exchange with telecom channels provided by operators worldwide. They are trying to simplify it to where anyone, with any type of phone can send money, through a simple text. These are all short examples and don’t give them full justice but the only thing they all have in common is that they are all cryptocurrencies and that they can be used with a phone. Telcoin is the only one that has shown great progress by partnering with big names like Wipro and GSMA. This shows that they are in the same realm with Telecom providers and are willing to comply with all the standards and regulations. I personally believe that this is a sleeper project and whenever it takes off, it is going to fly. Look at the team/advisors and tell me they are not bound for some success within the telecom industry.
desireco42 8y ago
It makes a lot of sense for this coin to be on Stellar network. It is fast and cheap, and they can actually create their own coin whenever they like and treat current ones as tokens. I think this is smart move and much better then creating on Ethereum because of speed and price that goes along with it and often is not mentioned. My 2c. Or 2 satoshis
- rms 8y ago
  The white paper says it uses the Stellar consensus protocol but doesn't specify that the coin is on the Stellar network.
urda 8y ago
You're not going to beat out Venmo, Apple Pay, and other established platforms. Can this blockchain currency nonsense end already? People need to stop trying to force a given tech to do something specific all the time. It's literally the definition of "trying too hard".
- rms 8y ago
  Consumer micropayments is one of the most basic possible applications of this technology and that it hasn't been implemented yet is sad. I'm not a fan of the customer experience of Venmo and Paypal and Apple Pay that require me to have a bank account or a credit card. They work in the first world for transfers over a certain minimum but there is really clearly room to innovate still. Do you see a future where blockchain technology exists but consumers don't use cryptocurrency? I do also. Who is to say that WhatsApps's implementation of Mobilecoin has to use their own proprietary cryptocurrency instead of letting users denominate transfers in local fiat currency?
  - freddie_mercury 8y ago
    There are plenty of alternatives in developing countries. (I live in one such country and no one here uses any of the things you listed.) None of them are based on the block chain. They don't require bank accounts or credit cards. They don't work just for "certain amounts". If those things don't exist in America it is because the market for them in America doesn't exist.
- ohtwenty 8y ago
  > You're not going to beat out Venmo, Apple Pay, and other established platforms. Those are established platforms where you are. Anecdotally, no-one here (NL) uses Venmo or apple pay, recently there's been an increase in popularity of 'tikkie' (https://tikkie.me/ https://tikkie.me/) which allows people to send payment requests through whatsapp (used by 90%< of people here). so if something like this is ingrained in whatsapp directly apps like that would lose popularity, i think
losvedir 8y ago
I don't understand - was this a traditional fund raise, or an ICO? I had thought ICO at first, since it's a crypto currency, but the article doesn't come right out and say it. If it's an ICO - how does that work, exactly? People buy some amount of the coin at a valuation, and then they'll be able to use it later once the actual application comes out?

48 points by rms 8y ago

Read about this one on Wired awhile back. Nice to see it making progress. Would love to see a succinct description of how this compares to / is better than the slew of other privacy coins...? Also, is there a first real use case in mind that doesn't involve a big established messaging app adopting it for payments? (that seems hard/complicated/requires a different skillset than building the software). In any event, congrats to the team. Smells like one of the better projects out there!

rms 8y ago
The main difference is that MobileCoin trusts Intel's SGX to create a platform that should be able to scale quickly on mobile. It also has a solution to allow for private key recovery in case you lose your phone. Zcash is more provably secure as it doesn't require trusting Intel's SGX but it's untenable on mobile right now as it's too computationally intensive. Monero and Dash are effectively anonymous for small transfers but for very large movements of money, the deep state can crack their tumbler algorithms. They provide good enough rather than verifiable anonymity. As CEO of the Signal Foundation, Moxie is in a unique position to encourage Signal protocol chat services to adopt something like MobileCoin. I would imagine that progression would go Signal -> WhatsApp, and that Signal would only reject MobileCoin if Moxie himself rejected MobileCoin. I think there isn't really a first use case other than an existing Signal protocol service adopting it.

gataca 8y ago

Can someone explain why the average user would prefer this over using venmo?

RIMR 8y ago
I guess you can now pay for illicit drugs using Signal without being tracked...
- Jommi 8y ago
  How are you not being tracked when your transaction will be on the blockchain? I can't believe we're still at this argument.
rms 8y ago
Pessimistically, they won't. Optimistically, they solve consumer micropayments by allowing the unbanked to send and store money via WhatsApp.
- gataca 8y ago
  Ok, that makes a lot of sense for the unbanked. I personally don’t know many people who are unbanked but maybe that number will grow in the future? I’m just trying to think about explaining this to some friends and why they should do this. Totally anonymous/private transactions between parties not having to use a bank?
  - armenarmen 8y ago
    From what I understand, the unbanked are really more of a thing in the developing world. The same crowd that'd be receiving micro loans were they looking to start small business in say rural Myanmar
    - HaloZero 8y ago
      Actually, I believe about 7-8% of the US is also unbanked. But that might be a specific to US (compared to other Western nations).
      - rms 8y ago
        I lost a bank account last year and was unbanked for a little while. I really hate my customer service interactions with banks and would be quite happy if I could unbank myself. Life pro tip: If your Charles Schwab broker emails and says that they're wondering why your retirement savings are nothing but medical marijuana penny stocks and if you'd like to come in to talk about healthy portfolio management strategies, you should go into the local office and not ignore that email.
  - bfuller 8y ago
    Most people who use whatsapp live in the third world. Almost everyone uses it in Guatemala, and most people also don't have a bank there.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
coolspot 8y ago
Street-level drug dealers would love secure and anonymous mobile payment platform for b2c and b2b settlements.
- rms 8y ago
  In the USA at least, it still exists, and it's called cash. If cash were invented today, it would be illegal. For most small payments if not large transfers, in the USA consumers actually have the right to transact anonymously. Tracking micropayments publicly forever on a blockchain seems like a step backwards. Being able to track large transfers on a blockchain is one of the benefits of living in the world where the Byzantine General's Problem has been solved.
SOLAR_FIELDS 8y ago
I am an expat who doesn't have a local bank account in my country (Sweden). Thus I can't use Cash, Venmo, Apple Pay, etc. or their Swedish equivalent (Swish) to send money to local friends after we go out to eat, etc. Paypal is my only real alternative right now, and I will never use Paypal. This might allow me to easily send cash to my local friends.
neuro_imager 8y ago
Privacy - All transactions on venmo are easily accessed by venmo and other third parties. International transactions - Venmo is very limited in this regard. The unbanked - As stated already, there are about two billion unbanked people worldwide. Avoiding banking cartels. - We've fed these parasites enough, don't you think? Ease of use - A payment over a social network would be relatively seamless, particularly if you believe that apps allowing for rapid transfer between cryptocurrencies will be feasible (they are to some degree already).
anubisresources 8y ago
I live in Uganda and something like this will be a great mobile money alternative. MTN and their ilk take a huge chunk of change for mobile money, and if this is cheap it’ll catch on very quickly here. It should also make paying domestic staff and various contractors easier, and that’ll be nice.
- darpa_escapee 8y ago
  They'll still have to pay the gatekeepers if they want to convert their cryptocurrency into something liquid.
  - anubisresources 8y ago
    Of course. As long as gatekeeper fees are less than the 3% charged for mobile money it’s a win

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

deft 8y ago

Mobilecoin is a token powered by a stellar smart contract. I don't care if Moxie or god himself is the lead of the project, because it's incredibly limited in scope (actually stellar advertises that as a feature of their smart contract platform) I doubt it will succeed. And no, a fancy mobile UI is not worth $30mil. Before someone replies with a quote from the whitepaper about what it /will/ do, don't bother. Until it's released I doubt any and all claims from the team. Because it's no different from any other high profile raise for a cryptocurrency and every single one so far has failed to deliver.

vimota 8y ago
This seems unduly negative. Genuinely, why do you think their use of Stellar's consensus algorithm makes it limited in scope? From my understanding they are just using their consensus not the actual network, and the use of SGX seems like a valid innovation. I'm not aware of any cryptocurrencies that can run on a "light" client without having to trust their node - is there one? I hear you on the delivering bit though.
sebleon 8y ago
> because it's incredibly limited in scope (...) I doubt it will succeed. What is the correct amount of scope to ensure success? I'm curious what's the logic behind your comment and negative predictions.
- RIMR 8y ago
  I would say that being legitimately innovative and not exactly like every other ICO with hollow promises would be where I draw the line.
  - sebleon 8y ago
    > legitimately innovative > exactly like every other ICO > hollow promises These are subjective opinions, doesn't seem like a rigorous line.
  - sebleon 8y ago

marknadal 8y ago

I was talking to Moxie's cofounder, Joshua Goldbard, the other month about this. They strongly depend upon secure enclaves to achieve it. It seems like a rather clever use of DMCA related technology, potentially backfiring in the DMCA's face if it is extended to other use cases. However, using secure enclaves seems like chasing a fading rainbow. The tech doesn't work without trusting the enclave, yet if we trust it, we're re-centralized our trust in chip makers like Intel. Or worse, if it works extraordinarily well, I'm afraid DMCA related gangs will figure out how to lawyer those use cases out of existence in the same way they lawyer-ed in the tech to begin with. I'm glad Moxie & co. are trying though, somebody has to! I have been previously very skeptical about the claims made by Signal, though, but as long as the enclave works, then they seem to hold true.

wskinner 8y ago
Care to share what claims you were skeptical about?
rms 8y ago
For what it's worth, we also trust the NSA to have written and verified our most important cryptographic hash functions, leading to the first rule of crypto -- never roll your own novel hash function. I see this as the start of a community effort to verify Intel SGX. I imagine that the process of rolling out a consumer facing high stakes product on SGX involves external verification of SGX beyond what it's gone through before.

0xFFC 8y ago

The idea seems exactly like Electroneum.

moe 8y ago
Or Aeon. Or Phoneum. Or Telcoin. Or Status.im. Or a dozen other coins with near identical goals.
- Canada 8y ago
  How are any of these things the same other than their claim to be "mobile"?
- Dystoxin 8y ago
  Aeon – Is pretty much like any cryptocurrency in general. They are trying to act like Monero but fast payments and multiple transactions like Litecoin. So the only I thing I see similar about Aeon and Telcoin is that they are on a mobile friendly. (Pretty much has to be for major adoption) Status – Is an Ethereum-sending app, where you can send Ethereum and messages back and forth. Therefore, I would compare this more to PayPal, than Telcoin. Team is somewhat lackluster. In addition, this is about sending crypto between people (mainly Ethereum) and relates to Telcoin because it is on a mobile phone. Phoneum - is a decentralized cryptocurrency that operates on mobile devices via app only, empowered by blockchain technology. The app also comes with a built in miner. I honestly could not find too much and it is not listed on CoinMarketCap. If I had to compare this to another crypto, it would be Electroneum, not Telcoin. They are literally doing the same thing and have a patent pending on the mobile miner. Telcoin – is a cryptocurrency designed to facilitate digital asset exchange with telecom channels provided by operators worldwide. They are trying to simplify it to where anyone, with any type of phone can send money, through a simple text. These are all short examples and don’t give them full justice but the only thing they all have in common is that they are all cryptocurrencies and that they can be used with a phone. Telcoin is the only one that has shown great progress by partnering with big names like Wipro and GSMA. This shows that they are in the same realm with Telecom providers and are willing to comply with all the standards and regulations. I personally believe that this is a sleeper project and whenever it takes off, it is going to fly. Look at the team/advisors and tell me they are not bound for some success within the telecom industry.

desireco42 8y ago

It makes a lot of sense for this coin to be on Stellar network. It is fast and cheap, and they can actually create their own coin whenever they like and treat current ones as tokens. I think this is smart move and much better then creating on Ethereum because of speed and price that goes along with it and often is not mentioned. My 2c. Or 2 satoshis

rms 8y ago
The white paper says it uses the Stellar consensus protocol but doesn't specify that the coin is on the Stellar network.

urda 8y ago

You're not going to beat out Venmo, Apple Pay, and other established platforms. Can this blockchain currency nonsense end already? People need to stop trying to force a given tech to do something specific all the time. It's literally the definition of "trying too hard".

rms 8y ago
Consumer micropayments is one of the most basic possible applications of this technology and that it hasn't been implemented yet is sad. I'm not a fan of the customer experience of Venmo and Paypal and Apple Pay that require me to have a bank account or a credit card. They work in the first world for transfers over a certain minimum but there is really clearly room to innovate still. Do you see a future where blockchain technology exists but consumers don't use cryptocurrency? I do also. Who is to say that WhatsApps's implementation of Mobilecoin has to use their own proprietary cryptocurrency instead of letting users denominate transfers in local fiat currency?
- freddie_mercury 8y ago
  There are plenty of alternatives in developing countries. (I live in one such country and no one here uses any of the things you listed.) None of them are based on the block chain. They don't require bank accounts or credit cards. They don't work just for "certain amounts". If those things don't exist in America it is because the market for them in America doesn't exist.
ohtwenty 8y ago
> You're not going to beat out Venmo, Apple Pay, and other established platforms. Those are established platforms where you are. Anecdotally, no-one here (NL) uses Venmo or apple pay, recently there's been an increase in popularity of 'tikkie' (https://tikkie.me/ https://tikkie.me/) which allows people to send payment requests through whatsapp (used by 90%< of people here). so if something like this is ingrained in whatsapp directly apps like that would lose popularity, i think

losvedir 8y ago

I don't understand - was this a traditional fund raise, or an ICO? I had thought ICO at first, since it's a crypto currency, but the article doesn't come right out and say it. If it's an ICO - how does that work, exactly? People buy some amount of the coin at a valuation, and then they'll be able to use it later once the actual application comes out?