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This is so horribly wrong- I've known upper middle class that get there by not spending hardly anything and owning their own business and operating it (e.g. Gas

This is so horribly wrong- I've known upper middle class that get there by not spending hardly anything and owning their own business and operating it (e.g. Gas Station + Auto Repair). No leeching there. No accounting for "Luck" here or proximity to resources and opportunity. Do they actually teach this in schools or what nowadays? starting to seem prevalent. Life is what you make it, tomorrow holds no promises, opportunity doesn't knock it looks backwards through your peephole, can't take it with you, go where the food is(!!) Heh, how about some more pragmatic advice huh?

vinceguidry 8y ago
The idea behind talking about classes isn't that there aren't people who don't fit the mold, but to just discuss the broader trends. For every frugal business owner making upper middle class incomes, (and deeply concerned that the economy will continue to support their livelihoods) there's fifty filling up middle management spots in midsize organizations or upper management spots in small organizations, safe in the understanding that the firm they're working for will insulate them from market trends and confident that they can find a new berth if it doesn't. Also, my descriptions aren't intended to be prescriptive, just descriptive. You want to know what the landscape looks like before you try to safely navigate it.
- ericd 8y ago
  The problem is that unless I'm interpreting it completely incorrectly, your descriptions are comic book renditions based on common prejudices that don't really map to reality, which makes me question whether this is based on experience and exposure to people in the middle and upper class or just an amalgamation of memes you've been exposed to online and have taken as evidence. Doctors and lawyers typically work incredibly demanding jobs that require a lot of up-front investment of time and money to make their outsized salaries, and they make up a huge portion of the class you called "leeches". And far from not needing to maintain their network, networking is incredibly important for upper middle and upper classes.
  - vinceguidry 8y ago
    I consider professionals to be middle and not upper middle class.
    - ericd 8y ago
      Why? Many of them pull down in excess of $500k/yr. Who do you consider to be upper middle class, if not them? You mention middle management, most of whom make less than financially successful doctors/lawyers.
dv_dt 8y ago
Of upper middle class folks who own their own businesses that I have met, more of them own their parents business or a spinoff of their parents business. Those that do not, often have come from an upper or upper middle class background where it was a very low risk situation for them to spend a year trying to get an odd business off the ground - they could always fall back to their parents, or their personal network. There are a few who built their own businesses from the ground up, but many of them will tell you that it was luck at multiple points that they were able to latch onto a workable cashflow (not to discount the hard work to explore that cashflow, and smarts to recognize and expand it...). Edit: Addendum, access to capital is key to reducing risk on the path to success, and it can be formally there or informally there. If you listen to podcasts, try "How I built this", interviewing a range of business founders. You have to listen for it, but a huge number start as, oh I worked in the financial industry and then had this idea..., or oh my parents were a lawyer and a physician... etc... The founder of Starbucks, Howard Schultz was saved from being ripped off from his business by a Seattle mogul by Bill Gates, Sr (yes father of that Bill Gates...).
awakeasleep 8y ago
You're using a gradational view of class to address points made from a relational analysis. A gradational view would be looking to sort people into grades, for example based on income. A relational view addresses how groups of people relate to each other, like one class might direct the labor of another. Neither view is wrong, but to intelligently talk about class you should realize that it's not a two dimensional spectrum, there are probably 4 or 5 dimensions to consider.

vinceguidry 8y ago

The idea behind talking about classes isn't that there aren't people who don't fit the mold, but to just discuss the broader trends. For every frugal business owner making upper middle class incomes, (and deeply concerned that the economy will continue to support their livelihoods) there's fifty filling up middle management spots in midsize organizations or upper management spots in small organizations, safe in the understanding that the firm they're working for will insulate them from market trends and confident that they can find a new berth if it doesn't. Also, my descriptions aren't intended to be prescriptive, just descriptive. You want to know what the landscape looks like before you try to safely navigate it.

ericd 8y ago
The problem is that unless I'm interpreting it completely incorrectly, your descriptions are comic book renditions based on common prejudices that don't really map to reality, which makes me question whether this is based on experience and exposure to people in the middle and upper class or just an amalgamation of memes you've been exposed to online and have taken as evidence. Doctors and lawyers typically work incredibly demanding jobs that require a lot of up-front investment of time and money to make their outsized salaries, and they make up a huge portion of the class you called "leeches". And far from not needing to maintain their network, networking is incredibly important for upper middle and upper classes.
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  I consider professionals to be middle and not upper middle class.
  - ericd 8y ago
    Why? Many of them pull down in excess of $500k/yr. Who do you consider to be upper middle class, if not them? You mention middle management, most of whom make less than financially successful doctors/lawyers.

dv_dt 8y ago

Of upper middle class folks who own their own businesses that I have met, more of them own their parents business or a spinoff of their parents business. Those that do not, often have come from an upper or upper middle class background where it was a very low risk situation for them to spend a year trying to get an odd business off the ground - they could always fall back to their parents, or their personal network. There are a few who built their own businesses from the ground up, but many of them will tell you that it was luck at multiple points that they were able to latch onto a workable cashflow (not to discount the hard work to explore that cashflow, and smarts to recognize and expand it...). Edit: Addendum, access to capital is key to reducing risk on the path to success, and it can be formally there or informally there. If you listen to podcasts, try "How I built this", interviewing a range of business founders. You have to listen for it, but a huge number start as, oh I worked in the financial industry and then had this idea..., or oh my parents were a lawyer and a physician... etc... The founder of Starbucks, Howard Schultz was saved from being ripped off from his business by a Seattle mogul by Bill Gates, Sr (yes father of that Bill Gates...).

awakeasleep 8y ago

You're using a gradational view of class to address points made from a relational analysis. A gradational view would be looking to sort people into grades, for example based on income. A relational view addresses how groups of people relate to each other, like one class might direct the labor of another. Neither view is wrong, but to intelligently talk about class you should realize that it's not a two dimensional spectrum, there are probably 4 or 5 dimensions to consider.