3 ms·

It's not a myth. I see it when recruiting for my teams. My sample size is too small to give a proportion, but it's enough that not having tests would be a total

It's not a myth. I see it when recruiting for my teams. My sample size is too small to give a proportion, but it's enough that not having tests would be a total waste of my and their time since I'd have to fire them on day 1.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Clubber 8y ago
I'm amazed you can't tell an imposter just by talking to them.
- twodave 8y ago
  The real problem is everyone looks like an imposter until you watch them code.
  - Clubber 8y ago
    I don't mean this the way it sounds, but if you can't tell if someone is an imposter by talking shop with them in your chosen profession, you probably shouldn't be doing the interviewing.
    - twodave 8y ago
      I think unless you're prideful enough to believe you can identify someone's level of productivity from a short conversation, it's probably better to see the proof. Again, why would I settle for a conversation when I can ask for first-hand proof? It's like a judge dismissing concrete evidence and just basing their verdict on the circumstantial. Sure, it's likely to be right most of the time, but what about when it isn't?
      - Clubber 8y ago
        >I think unless you're prideful enough to believe you can identify someone's level of productivity None of the techniques discussed in this article are even attempting to judge productivity, they are attempts to judge coding ability. It's good that you bring up productivity though; that's what we are really after, isn't it? >from a short conversation I'd argue 30 minutes to an hour is not a short conversation. Do you think an imposter could fool you about tech (assuming you are an active programmer) for 30 minutes to an hour? >it's probably better to see the proof You're not proving anything except the fact that the candidate has memorized a merge sort algorithm (or whatever trivia you are testing for). What you really want to know is, can they ship? I think you should at least consider the idea that not only are these tests and homework assignments (past fizz buzz) a poor indicator of ability, they active repel any candidate good enough to be in even reasonable demand. I mean you have a lot of people on not only this thread, but many other threads saying the same thing. Time for a little reflection, what does your company offer that even a mediocre developer can't get in 20 other places in your city? I mean if I could get "market rates," and a "fine cubicle," and "standard PTO" in 20 places, tell me again why I would bother with this rigamarole?
        azemetre 8y ago
        I absolute agree with you. I have no idea where the idea that having someone come on site for 6+ hours wasting a dozen peoples time became the norm as opposed to talking to someone for 1 or 2 hours and truly speaking with them to understand what they know. You're completely right, if you can't talk shop and not know when someone is bullshitting you shouldn't be the one interviewing. How would this even fly in other industries? Are you telling me that someone can bluff their way discussing the intricacies of surgery to other surgeons without looking like a moron? Or discussing particle physics with a researcher and stand on equal footing? I honestly want to hear a conversation where a liar with no programming skills is able to convince a Senior level Software Engineer that they are on equal skill sets. The best interview experience I had, where I eventually worked for the company, was having an hour conversation with the Engineering Manager who I would be working under then being ask basic programming Qs based on our conversation we had. Everyone in the company was interviewed the same way. IMO the resulting team was very professional and skilled on various levels from various backgrounds. I actually felt like a human at that job and not a person hired because of x thing. I'll never forget I had an interview where they asked me a question about finding anagrams. At that moment in my life, I've never heard of an anagram or knew what it was. The Interviewer then explaining what it was to me made me feel very humiliated. I completely bombed every question because I had the audacity to not know about this thing where the interviewers knew about thing therefore I should know thing as well. I immediately understood how cultural biases can effect candidates getting jobs. I can only imagine how worst it is for people not from traditional backgrounds in this industry.
    - edanm 8y ago
      You're sometimes right, but sometimes really wrong. I had a candidate for a 3d graphics job, who showed me incredibly impressive things he'd programmed like very realistic water simulations, etc. He talked us through them, was incredibly articulate and clearly knew his stuff. He completely bombed the coding exercise. It was something like: given 2 hours alone at a computer, with a threejs scene already setup, make it display a few cubes at different heights, colors, etc. Full access to internet, google, etc. He couldn't get one cube to show up. That's maybe a two line piece of code when given the entire environment already set up, and you can find it by googling Threejs tutorial and copying like the first example.
      - Clubber 8y ago
        >You're sometimes right, but sometimes really wrong. Ya. As far as graphics, the only time I was ever fooled was by a front end guy in 2005. He brought really nice looking color printouts of his front ends; beautiful stuff. I was really wowed by it; so much I didn't ask him basic programming problems or follow up questions about his prior work, and that was my fault. I allowed myself to be fooled. His biggest issue was he was lazy. He had grown accustomed to government contracts where you do a lot of prototyping, but nothing ever went live (at least the contracts he had). We had a very aggressive 3 year schedule to build a sophisticated product and he just couldn't or wouldn't keep up. I had to double my workload and he ended up only doing about 5% when he should have done a third and he required a lot of prodding and hand holding. We still managed to ship on time though, but it was really hard on the other 2 people on the team for 3 years. I'll never make that mistake again.
      - cjg 8y ago
        But yet he "clearly knew his stuff". Perhaps he really was a very talented developer but your coding exercise was too stressful for him. Shame you missed out on hiring him. This is not a story to show why we should do coding exercises. It is a story to show why they sometimes don't test the right thing.
        edanm 8y ago
        Your interpretation does theoretically fit with the facts. But so do a few other (in my mind more plausible) stories, like: 1. He knows how to do extremely specialized things in an existing environment, but can't do things outside of that environment. 2. He was presenting work that he had only a partial hand in creating. 3. He is amazing at e.g. C++, but cannot learn even rudimentary new things in Javascript. ... Some of these stories make him a terrible programmer. Some of them make him an OK programmer for other positions, but weren't relevant for us. None of the stories make him a particularly great programmer. "Perhaps he really was a very talented developer but your coding exercise was too stressful for him" Yes, it's possible. A lot of things are possible. But I'm sorry - if someone can't copy-paste a 3 line program from the internet and get it to work, in their own field, for 2 hours, then... I don't know how I could ever design a test on which they won't fail. Including the actual job.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Clubber 8y ago

I'm amazed you can't tell an imposter just by talking to them.

twodave 8y ago
The real problem is everyone looks like an imposter until you watch them code.
- Clubber 8y ago
  I don't mean this the way it sounds, but if you can't tell if someone is an imposter by talking shop with them in your chosen profession, you probably shouldn't be doing the interviewing.
  - twodave 8y ago
    I think unless you're prideful enough to believe you can identify someone's level of productivity from a short conversation, it's probably better to see the proof. Again, why would I settle for a conversation when I can ask for first-hand proof? It's like a judge dismissing concrete evidence and just basing their verdict on the circumstantial. Sure, it's likely to be right most of the time, but what about when it isn't?
    - Clubber 8y ago
      >I think unless you're prideful enough to believe you can identify someone's level of productivity None of the techniques discussed in this article are even attempting to judge productivity, they are attempts to judge coding ability. It's good that you bring up productivity though; that's what we are really after, isn't it? >from a short conversation I'd argue 30 minutes to an hour is not a short conversation. Do you think an imposter could fool you about tech (assuming you are an active programmer) for 30 minutes to an hour? >it's probably better to see the proof You're not proving anything except the fact that the candidate has memorized a merge sort algorithm (or whatever trivia you are testing for). What you really want to know is, can they ship? I think you should at least consider the idea that not only are these tests and homework assignments (past fizz buzz) a poor indicator of ability, they active repel any candidate good enough to be in even reasonable demand. I mean you have a lot of people on not only this thread, but many other threads saying the same thing. Time for a little reflection, what does your company offer that even a mediocre developer can't get in 20 other places in your city? I mean if I could get "market rates," and a "fine cubicle," and "standard PTO" in 20 places, tell me again why I would bother with this rigamarole?
      - azemetre 8y ago
        I absolute agree with you. I have no idea where the idea that having someone come on site for 6+ hours wasting a dozen peoples time became the norm as opposed to talking to someone for 1 or 2 hours and truly speaking with them to understand what they know. You're completely right, if you can't talk shop and not know when someone is bullshitting you shouldn't be the one interviewing. How would this even fly in other industries? Are you telling me that someone can bluff their way discussing the intricacies of surgery to other surgeons without looking like a moron? Or discussing particle physics with a researcher and stand on equal footing? I honestly want to hear a conversation where a liar with no programming skills is able to convince a Senior level Software Engineer that they are on equal skill sets. The best interview experience I had, where I eventually worked for the company, was having an hour conversation with the Engineering Manager who I would be working under then being ask basic programming Qs based on our conversation we had. Everyone in the company was interviewed the same way. IMO the resulting team was very professional and skilled on various levels from various backgrounds. I actually felt like a human at that job and not a person hired because of x thing. I'll never forget I had an interview where they asked me a question about finding anagrams. At that moment in my life, I've never heard of an anagram or knew what it was. The Interviewer then explaining what it was to me made me feel very humiliated. I completely bombed every question because I had the audacity to not know about this thing where the interviewers knew about thing therefore I should know thing as well. I immediately understood how cultural biases can effect candidates getting jobs. I can only imagine how worst it is for people not from traditional backgrounds in this industry.
  - edanm 8y ago
    You're sometimes right, but sometimes really wrong. I had a candidate for a 3d graphics job, who showed me incredibly impressive things he'd programmed like very realistic water simulations, etc. He talked us through them, was incredibly articulate and clearly knew his stuff. He completely bombed the coding exercise. It was something like: given 2 hours alone at a computer, with a threejs scene already setup, make it display a few cubes at different heights, colors, etc. Full access to internet, google, etc. He couldn't get one cube to show up. That's maybe a two line piece of code when given the entire environment already set up, and you can find it by googling Threejs tutorial and copying like the first example.
    - Clubber 8y ago
      >You're sometimes right, but sometimes really wrong. Ya. As far as graphics, the only time I was ever fooled was by a front end guy in 2005. He brought really nice looking color printouts of his front ends; beautiful stuff. I was really wowed by it; so much I didn't ask him basic programming problems or follow up questions about his prior work, and that was my fault. I allowed myself to be fooled. His biggest issue was he was lazy. He had grown accustomed to government contracts where you do a lot of prototyping, but nothing ever went live (at least the contracts he had). We had a very aggressive 3 year schedule to build a sophisticated product and he just couldn't or wouldn't keep up. I had to double my workload and he ended up only doing about 5% when he should have done a third and he required a lot of prodding and hand holding. We still managed to ship on time though, but it was really hard on the other 2 people on the team for 3 years. I'll never make that mistake again.
    - cjg 8y ago
      But yet he "clearly knew his stuff". Perhaps he really was a very talented developer but your coding exercise was too stressful for him. Shame you missed out on hiring him. This is not a story to show why we should do coding exercises. It is a story to show why they sometimes don't test the right thing.
      - edanm 8y ago
        Your interpretation does theoretically fit with the facts. But so do a few other (in my mind more plausible) stories, like: 1. He knows how to do extremely specialized things in an existing environment, but can't do things outside of that environment. 2. He was presenting work that he had only a partial hand in creating. 3. He is amazing at e.g. C++, but cannot learn even rudimentary new things in Javascript. ... Some of these stories make him a terrible programmer. Some of them make him an OK programmer for other positions, but weren't relevant for us. None of the stories make him a particularly great programmer. "Perhaps he really was a very talented developer but your coding exercise was too stressful for him" Yes, it's possible. A lot of things are possible. But I'm sorry - if someone can't copy-paste a 3 line program from the internet and get it to work, in their own field, for 2 hours, then... I don't know how I could ever design a test on which they won't fail. Including the actual job.