8 ms·

I fully agree. German media constantly complains about "IT expert shortage" yet salaries grow like 3% per year. So IMO it's either not a shortage or the German

I fully agree. German media constantly complains about "IT expert shortage" yet salaries grow like 3% per year. So IMO it's either not a shortage or the German industry doesn't know how to attract good people. To put some data points there (in EUR) 1. Germany Uni Doctorate Position: 32k, 22k after deductions 2. Germany AI / Data Scientist Position: 80k, 50k after deductions 3. Luxembourg Uni Doctorate Position: 32k, 26k after deductions 4. Luxembourg AI / Data Scientist Position: 80k, 60k after deductions Source: Friends and family and me The above two countries belong arguably to the economical top tier, yet they can hardly compete with a US Senior Software developer (>= 100k$?) Now imagine how the non-top tier countries fare (i.e., 80% of the EU population) I was an AI researcher and now work as ML/AI/Data Scientist consultant (mostly for non-European companies) and I yet have to see that European job offer of 120k€ per year, hell, make that 100k€.

Radim 9y ago
Another datapoint for perspective, from the Czech Republic (also an EU country): * PhD stipend: €3.3k / year (untaxed) * median CZ salary: €13k / year, €11k after taxes * data scientist: €30k / year, €22k after taxes (royalty! although still below a doctorate student in Germany, apparently)
- laingc 9y ago
  €30k buys you a hell of a lot more in the Czech Republic than in Hamburg or Munich.
  - Radim 9y ago
    Or in some cases, a hell of a lot less :-) Little known fact: people from CZ routinely travel to Germany for shopping. It's not just for the cheaper prices (electronics, drugstore), but even where the prices are comparable, for the much higher quality of products (dairy, food). The most expensive country I've lived in was Romania, where the salaries are even lower than CZ. This trend of higher salaries => cheaper and better goods is rather counter-intuitive (though services are cheaper, to be fair).
    - trumpeta 9y ago
      Consumer goods are about the same between CZ and DE, I think what OP meant is things like housing or healthcare, that is much cheaper in CZ.
    - allendoerfer 9y ago
      This is because of cheap German supermarkets (Aldi, Lidl) with ruthless efficiency dictating prices for the German market.
      - rjsw 9y ago
        There is also the issue that food manufacturers have been selling products with different ingredients but the same packaging in Eastern Europe compared to the ones they sell in Western Europe.
    - eeZah7Ux 9y ago
      It might be counter-intuitive but, on the contrary, high salaries and cheap goods are effects of economic power. Contrast it with powerless people that have low income and pay relatively high prices for basic goods or rent: the stereotypical coal miner from 1800, people in prison, poor people in some western countries...
ben_w 9y ago
I’m in the UK, intending to move out for obvious reasons (would’ve gone a year ago but relative got an Alzheimer’s diagnosis early 2017). Considering Berlin, Silicon Valley, or a PhD just about anywhere if the cost is in my range. Once healthcare (at NHS level) and rent are accounted for, $100k in Silicon Valley isn’t as good as £37k in the UK. Germany has more expensive healthcare than the UK’s NHS, but significantly lower rent and overall is only slightly more expensive than the UK… unless you intend to eventually buy a house, in which case it’s suddenly much cheaper.
- north_east_dev 9y ago
  > I’m in the UK, intending to move out for obvious reasons I thought you meant pay by this, but then you include Berlin in your list of potential places... Is there other reasons I'm missing out on? Genuinely curious
  - okkevdwal 9y ago
    I think he's talking about the upcoming Brexit :)
  - ben_w 9y ago
    Brexit. I could go on for ages about specifics, but experience says that nobody outside the UK really cares (it’s so 2016), and nobody inside the UK is changing their minds.
    - north_east_dev 9y ago
      Haha! Oh right. I'm an immigrant in the UK myself. Curious as to why the natives would leave :)
      - ben_w 9y ago
        Ah! Partly the total incompetence of the people who are in charge of making Brexit happen, partly because I don’t trust the UK government with human rights unless bound by international convention (a bind which looks like it will be a lot weaker after Brexit). It’s unfortunate, really, there’s a lot of nice stuff in the UK too. And I know I’ll miss it.
hdkrgr 9y ago
While I don't disagree with your argument, the disparity is not quite that high (talking about Germany). A Uni Doctorate Position in Germany is 44k in the first year, ~49k from the second year (EUR before deductions) as per official TVL13 tariff. You are probably referring to the fact that it's common for PhD students to have 'half' or '3/4' positions, but afaik in CS, and especially AI, full positions are the norm. The Industry figures seem on point.
- dmichulke 9y ago
  There might also be a difference between the Länder. Case in point: A friend and colleague of mine had a full position in Dresden (AI) and he got a little more than 30k (AFAIR before deductions). That was around 2009 I guess. Maybe in high rent cities (Munich, ...) it's different?
  - kmmlng 9y ago
    There is a difference between east and west Germany, but not specifically between the Länder. In 2009 you would have gotten (before deductions) ~34873 in the east and ~37852 in the west. In 2018 it is ~45863 in the east and ~45900 in the west. This is all assuming a full-time E13 position. Source (German): http://oeffentlicher-dienst.info/tv-l/west/ http://oeffentlicher-dienst.info/tv-l/west/
bobcostas55 9y ago
I think this framing is a bit misleading. Salaries aren't exogenous, they track productivity. If a data scientist in Germany is making half of what he would be making in SV, it's because he's much less productive in Germany. Changing this isn't simply a matter of paying more to attract better talent, it's a much deeper issue.
- candiodari 9y ago
  Actually, as someone who's actually been an academic in Western Europe, I'd say the reverse is true. Certainly mathematical ability is better in Western Europe (on average). The top, no doubt, SV's top performers far exceed those Europe has (perhaps because a decent part of them are from Europe, and those weren't selected randomly. I mean to some extent that's fun because I actually know almost 10% of the top ones. From working with them before they went to the US). But average among the population, even at universities, no doubt whatsoever, Europeans are better at math than USians. But for the top, the brain drain makes the playing field very unequal. Besides, it's not just ability of people at universities itself. Money for programs is also very different. The US military supports US research ... and in Europe ... it's also the US military that supports research (but obviously not equally, and I must say, I find it hard to blame them for that). And in the US you regularly see academics pay for their own organizations outside of the direct academic context. Obviously that works better with better pay. There are government grants, but it doesn't compare to US university endowments (or however they sponsor that). Many of the people "brain drained" didn't leave until they were 10 years into their academic career, out of frustration of just not fighting on a level playing field just because their governments just don't support them. If German universities paid the same, and stopped the brain drain, I have very little doubt they would exceed the output of SV. But with the current levels of people leaving, never going to happen. And to be fair, Germany's universities are nowhere near as bad as Southern Europe's universities, and even those are far ahead of most of Eastern Europe. That doesn't mean there isn't the occasional great person working there, there is, but most of the good ones leave.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

Radim 9y ago

Another datapoint for perspective, from the Czech Republic (also an EU country): * PhD stipend: €3.3k / year (untaxed) * median CZ salary: €13k / year, €11k after taxes * data scientist: €30k / year, €22k after taxes (royalty! although still below a doctorate student in Germany, apparently)

laingc 9y ago
€30k buys you a hell of a lot more in the Czech Republic than in Hamburg or Munich.
- Radim 9y ago
  Or in some cases, a hell of a lot less :-) Little known fact: people from CZ routinely travel to Germany for shopping. It's not just for the cheaper prices (electronics, drugstore), but even where the prices are comparable, for the much higher quality of products (dairy, food). The most expensive country I've lived in was Romania, where the salaries are even lower than CZ. This trend of higher salaries => cheaper and better goods is rather counter-intuitive (though services are cheaper, to be fair).
  - trumpeta 9y ago
    Consumer goods are about the same between CZ and DE, I think what OP meant is things like housing or healthcare, that is much cheaper in CZ.
  - allendoerfer 9y ago
    This is because of cheap German supermarkets (Aldi, Lidl) with ruthless efficiency dictating prices for the German market.
    - rjsw 9y ago
      There is also the issue that food manufacturers have been selling products with different ingredients but the same packaging in Eastern Europe compared to the ones they sell in Western Europe.
  - eeZah7Ux 9y ago
    It might be counter-intuitive but, on the contrary, high salaries and cheap goods are effects of economic power. Contrast it with powerless people that have low income and pay relatively high prices for basic goods or rent: the stereotypical coal miner from 1800, people in prison, poor people in some western countries...

ben_w 9y ago

I’m in the UK, intending to move out for obvious reasons (would’ve gone a year ago but relative got an Alzheimer’s diagnosis early 2017). Considering Berlin, Silicon Valley, or a PhD just about anywhere if the cost is in my range. Once healthcare (at NHS level) and rent are accounted for, $100k in Silicon Valley isn’t as good as £37k in the UK. Germany has more expensive healthcare than the UK’s NHS, but significantly lower rent and overall is only slightly more expensive than the UK… unless you intend to eventually buy a house, in which case it’s suddenly much cheaper.

north_east_dev 9y ago
> I’m in the UK, intending to move out for obvious reasons I thought you meant pay by this, but then you include Berlin in your list of potential places... Is there other reasons I'm missing out on? Genuinely curious
- okkevdwal 9y ago
  I think he's talking about the upcoming Brexit :)
- ben_w 9y ago
  Brexit. I could go on for ages about specifics, but experience says that nobody outside the UK really cares (it’s so 2016), and nobody inside the UK is changing their minds.
  - north_east_dev 9y ago
    Haha! Oh right. I'm an immigrant in the UK myself. Curious as to why the natives would leave :)
    - ben_w 9y ago
      Ah! Partly the total incompetence of the people who are in charge of making Brexit happen, partly because I don’t trust the UK government with human rights unless bound by international convention (a bind which looks like it will be a lot weaker after Brexit). It’s unfortunate, really, there’s a lot of nice stuff in the UK too. And I know I’ll miss it.

hdkrgr 9y ago

While I don't disagree with your argument, the disparity is not quite that high (talking about Germany). A Uni Doctorate Position in Germany is 44k in the first year, ~49k from the second year (EUR before deductions) as per official TVL13 tariff. You are probably referring to the fact that it's common for PhD students to have 'half' or '3/4' positions, but afaik in CS, and especially AI, full positions are the norm. The Industry figures seem on point.

dmichulke 9y ago
There might also be a difference between the Länder. Case in point: A friend and colleague of mine had a full position in Dresden (AI) and he got a little more than 30k (AFAIR before deductions). That was around 2009 I guess. Maybe in high rent cities (Munich, ...) it's different?
- kmmlng 9y ago
  There is a difference between east and west Germany, but not specifically between the Länder. In 2009 you would have gotten (before deductions) ~34873 in the east and ~37852 in the west. In 2018 it is ~45863 in the east and ~45900 in the west. This is all assuming a full-time E13 position. Source (German): http://oeffentlicher-dienst.info/tv-l/west/ http://oeffentlicher-dienst.info/tv-l/west/

bobcostas55 9y ago

I think this framing is a bit misleading. Salaries aren't exogenous, they track productivity. If a data scientist in Germany is making half of what he would be making in SV, it's because he's much less productive in Germany. Changing this isn't simply a matter of paying more to attract better talent, it's a much deeper issue.

candiodari 9y ago
Actually, as someone who's actually been an academic in Western Europe, I'd say the reverse is true. Certainly mathematical ability is better in Western Europe (on average). The top, no doubt, SV's top performers far exceed those Europe has (perhaps because a decent part of them are from Europe, and those weren't selected randomly. I mean to some extent that's fun because I actually know almost 10% of the top ones. From working with them before they went to the US). But average among the population, even at universities, no doubt whatsoever, Europeans are better at math than USians. But for the top, the brain drain makes the playing field very unequal. Besides, it's not just ability of people at universities itself. Money for programs is also very different. The US military supports US research ... and in Europe ... it's also the US military that supports research (but obviously not equally, and I must say, I find it hard to blame them for that). And in the US you regularly see academics pay for their own organizations outside of the direct academic context. Obviously that works better with better pay. There are government grants, but it doesn't compare to US university endowments (or however they sponsor that). Many of the people "brain drained" didn't leave until they were 10 years into their academic career, out of frustration of just not fighting on a level playing field just because their governments just don't support them. If German universities paid the same, and stopped the brain drain, I have very little doubt they would exceed the output of SV. But with the current levels of people leaving, never going to happen. And to be fair, Germany's universities are nowhere near as bad as Southern Europe's universities, and even those are far ahead of most of Eastern Europe. That doesn't mean there isn't the occasional great person working there, there is, but most of the good ones leave.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]