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"Home" is a place I can settle, start a family, go back to and live in. I grew up near Geneva. My parents bought a house in France because it was cheaper. My d

"Home" is a place I can settle, start a family, go back to and live in. I grew up near Geneva. My parents bought a house in France because it was cheaper. My dad crossed the border every day to work at CERN and take me to international school. I can't be Swiss, because my parents weren't resident. I can't be French, because I wasn't born there. The nearest French hospital is 2 hours away through the mountains and CERN paid for Swiss health insurance. I'm British by descent because my parents are from there. Future children born outside the UK cannot be British from me, because I wasn't born in the UK. If I stayed in Geneva and met a wife there in the same situation (very common with UN kids), and kept living with my parents, future children would be stateless. My girlfriend is Taiwanese. If she and I had children, they would be Taiwanese from her, and would have to go to the military and learn how to kill foreigners. There's a conflict of interest - I don't want children to kill me. She had a great time in Australia on Working Holiday and wanted to go to New Zealand too, but couldn't get one of the 600 visas even though we stayed up all night and applied as soon as applications opened at 6 am. For her to move to the UK requires her to meet income requirements of £18,600 per year, which she doesn't earn with her CAD job, and it would take 5 years. New Zealand offers PR after 2 years, and New Zealand PR is enough for children to get citizenship. (some countries e.g. Canada give citizenship at birth to everyone, but then it's possible for parents to lose their visa and be separated from kids - I want PR before I marry).

keont 9y ago
God fucking damnit. With that amount of knowledge and detail, I hope you end when you are comfortable to be, and accepted as well. This situations seem so fucking ridicolous to me. Any country would be fortunate to have someone like you.
- newfoundglory 9y ago
  “This amount of knowledge” appears to be a canonical example of “just enough knowledge to be dangerous”. It appears that he’s spent years arranging his life under a false understanding of the relevant laws that could have been cleared up by a question on immihelp, or ten minutes with a UK immigration lawyer.
ensiferum 9y ago
Sorry I don't buy this. You make this sound as if you were stateless which of course is not the case or you wouldn't be able to be in Taiwan either unless you sneaked into there and are in fact working illegally.
- peterburkimsher 9y ago
  I'm not stateless. I have a work visa. The article explains the pressure of living on a work visa (shut up, get in line, or lose your job, visa, and country). Taiwan is not "home" because I can't start a family here. Even if I didn't care about children's military service, I can't get a Taiwanese passport without renouncing my previous citizenship and going to military service myself. Taiwanese PR doesn't give children nationality, and I would lose the PR if I leave for more than 2 years.
  - ricardobeat 9y ago
    As a British citizen, you can already have permanent residence there. Bringing a partner over has no income requirements, either proof of being together >2 years or marriage (anywhere, marriage is usually valid across countries) [1], I’ve seen hundreds of people bring their partners over to Europe. Your children will be born in the UK and have full citizenship. [1] https://www.gov.uk/uk-family-visa/partner-spouse https://www.gov.uk/uk-family-visa/partner-spouse
- newfoundglory 9y ago
  He's not stateless, he's British.
north_east_dev 9y ago
Sucks for your situation. One question though (I'm sure you've heard before)... > For her to move to the UK requires her to meet income requirements of £18,600 per year What about if you got married?
- peterburkimsher 9y ago
  Marriage doesn't help! "Partnership" is recognised by immigration, and that requires living together, sharing the same address and bank account for a year. This is because of a cultural shift in the meaning of marriage. It used to be one man and one woman, for life. Divorce, polygamy, homosexuality, and marriages of convenience changed that definition. I'm not trying to get distracted about whether those groups of people should be allowed to marry - that's a different political debate. The outcome is that marriage doesn't matter for immigration any more. As soon as I get married, I'm going to have sex! But that might bring babies. If those kids can't have nationality, or risk their parents being separated by visa issues, I want to delay having those kids. So I want to get PR before getting married.
  - north_east_dev 9y ago
    Ok, it sounds like you've thought things through and best of luck with it.
  - ryanobjc 9y ago
    I’m not sure why you threw in a dig at homosexuals in your little immigration rant. That’s probably why you’re getting downvotes here. Plus it erases a lot of goodwill you might be building up. Also btw, there is no modern state that recognizes polygamy, especially for immigration purposes! Ps: marriages of convenience are ... classic marriages. That is what marriage used to be. A business or political arrangement. For convenience.
  - arkades 9y ago
    > As soon as I get married ... might bring babies Contraception.
  - hycaria 9y ago
newfoundglory 9y ago
You're a British citizen, you can move to any country in the EU. If you marry your girlfriend, she can move with you, and other countries in the EU will not require her to show income to move with you. You could be there in a few months, without waiting for companies to notice you. Source: am British citizen by descent, have lived in France. Edit: and then to move to Britain from an EU country she doesn't need to show an income at all https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/family-residence-rights/non-eu-wife-husband-children/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/family-resid...
- digianarchist 9y ago
  You can always use the Surinder Singh route to bypass the income requirements of moving your spouse to the UK. It’s a pain and the Home Office will fight you tooth and nail but it’s legal.
- biztos 9y ago
  I might have this wrong, but last I checked IIRC the deal is your non-EU spouse has a right to live with you (assuming you're an EU national) in any EU country other than your own. She would also have a work permit, should she choose to work. In your own country the local immigration rules apply to your non-EU spouse. So for a UK citizen with a Taiwanese wife it would be extremely simple (until Brexit of course) to move with her, the "third-country national," to France or Austria or wherever. Whether it's also easy to move to the UK with her, I have no idea... but it's definitely not automatically approved in all EU countries.
  - newfoundglory 9y ago
    As another commenter mentioned, it is known as the Surinder Singh application - you have to show that you are genuine residents of the other EU country, and then your home country has to treat you as they would any other couple with the right to live in the EU - https://www.gov.uk/family-permit/surinder-singh https://www.gov.uk/family-permit/surinder-singh
- pm 9y ago
  UK citizens should find it fairly easy to immigrate to Australia.
newfoundglory 9y ago
Oh, and just to address this concern: > future children would be stateless. If you had children who were stateless by birth, they would become eligible for British citizenship. Also, if you live in the UK for three consecutive years, then any children born after that period will be able to inherit British citizenship from you.
- peterburkimsher 9y ago
  Children born overseas (e.g. France, Taiwan) can't be British. Children born in the UK from me can be British, I think. I was in the UK for university and a Christian volunteer group, over a period of 5 years. I emailed the Home Office to ask to "upgrade" my citizenship, but they said there's no way to do that. So I'm not sure where you got that 3 year limit from. (But maybe this changed since 2012 when I was last there).
  - newfoundglory 9y ago
    I got this information from my research in the 90s, and it’s definitely valid today. Your own citizenship does not change, but your children will be eligible to register as a British citizen through form MN1 Section 3(2) > To qualify under this section, the parent who is British by descent must have been born to a parent who was a British citizen otherwise than by descent (or if that person died, then they would have been a British citizen otherwise than by descent but for their death). The British citizen by descent parent must have lived in the UK (or, if the child was born on or after 21 May 2002, in a British overseas territory) for a continuous period of 3 years at any time before the child’s birth. During that period they should not have absences exceeding 270 days. The application must be made whilst the child is under 18 years of age. The 3 year residence requirement for the parent does not need to be met if the child is stateless. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/583385/MN1_Guide_January_2017.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
    - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
      What if two such parents had a child born in France? The child would be stateless, except that Britain allows stateless children born to British citizens to gain citizenship and France allows stateless children born in the country to gain citizenship. Which one would the children actually get?
circlefavshape 9y ago
AFAIK if you're a British citizen you're entitled to live in Ireland, and any children born in Ireland will have Irish citizenship
- justin66 9y ago
  And that's going to be an increasingly valuable passport in the coming years, I would think.
cletus 9y ago
Sorry but I don’t understand the problem: you have British citizenship. You can reside and work anywhere in the EU. That puts you in a fairly enviable position. If you marry your wife is entitled to permanent residency (I think it’s called permanent leave to remain), which is a lot easier to get than say any US equivalent. British permanent residency is (for now) EU residency. It’s also not quite true that your children would be stateless. This vastly depends in where they’re born. Also there are provisions for this in UK law. Lastly grandchildren of UK born citizens (which it sounds like they would be) are entitled to an ancestry visa. This gives 4 years to live and work in the UK without restriction. If they’re still there after 4 years they then get permanent residency and are entitled to apply for citizenship a year after that. EDIT: so it’s been some years since I lived in the UK and the rules have gotten much harsher on spouse visas, namely there is an income requirement for the Briton (£18,600pa) and the spouse visa is for 30 months renewable for another 30 months so now it takes 5 years to get ILR (indefinite leave to remain). It used to be 2. Still, it’s an option. As are other EU countries. Ireland, Sweden and even the Netherlands look like decent options. Maybe Austria too.
- digianarchist 9y ago
  Marriage does entitle his wife to PR. It entitles his wife to FLR which needs to be renewed after 2.5 years before she will be granted indefinitely leave to remain (UK green card). If you lose your job before the renewal she won’t get the visa. You are better off moving to Canada. You will both get PR straight away and citizenship in 3 years.
digianarchist 9y ago
If you come into Canada using the Express Entry immigrantiom system then you land as a PR and so does your wife. No qualification period. Also Canada recognises commonlaw marriage.
- t1o5 9y ago
  I made the switch from H1B's indentured servitude to being a permanent resident of Canada through the Express Entry system. It changed my life for good. US corporates likes H1B so much that they are lobbying to keep the shackles as it is. Here is how I did it -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15452647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15452647
- peterburkimsher 9y ago
  Yes, Canada's Express Entry is one of my top-two preferences. The problem is if I then leave for more than 2 years, I lose PR. So it's not really "Permanent". I'd have to stay for 4 years and become a citizen. But that's ok - I enjoyed my Working Holiday there, and I could see myself being there for 4 years. My girlfriend said she prefers NZ though (and NZ has tougher requirements) so I'm sticking with that for now. If anything happens to our relationship though, and we decide it's better to be apart, then I'll be on the next plane to Canada.
  - digianarchist 9y ago
    >The problem is if I then leave for more than 2 years, I lose PR That's not correct. You need to be present in Canada for 2 years out of every 5. NZ is more flexible but has a 2 year qualifying period to get PR. It's also 3 years to qualify for citizenship. US Greencards are the worst. Leave the country for a couple of months and it can be revoked.
justin66 9y ago
> If she and I had children, they would be Taiwanese from her, and would have to go to the military and learn how to kill foreigners. There's a conflict of interest - I don't want children to kill me. Taiwan isn't the only country you mentioned that has compulsory military service. Your children would "kill you" (wtf?) if they grew up in Switzerland as well.
- peterburkimsher 9y ago
  Yes, that's correct. That's one major reason I'm not planning to move to Switzerland, Austria, Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, or Israel. The choice of other countries (EU, Canada, Australia, NZ) is more flexible, and mostly emotional based on my experience of working holiday/summer jobs in those places.
RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u 9y ago
> If she and I had children, they would be Taiwanese from her, and would have to go to the military and learn how to kill foreigners. Compulsory military service had been phasing out for years, if not fully by this year, almost certainly by the time your children would be born. Moreover, only men are conscripted, so it's a ~50% chance. Finally, there are various alternate services they could qualify for, in lieu of military service. So I'm not sure what your GF's been telling you?!

keont 9y ago

God fucking damnit. With that amount of knowledge and detail, I hope you end when you are comfortable to be, and accepted as well. This situations seem so fucking ridicolous to me. Any country would be fortunate to have someone like you.

newfoundglory 9y ago
“This amount of knowledge” appears to be a canonical example of “just enough knowledge to be dangerous”. It appears that he’s spent years arranging his life under a false understanding of the relevant laws that could have been cleared up by a question on immihelp, or ten minutes with a UK immigration lawyer.

ensiferum 9y ago

Sorry I don't buy this. You make this sound as if you were stateless which of course is not the case or you wouldn't be able to be in Taiwan either unless you sneaked into there and are in fact working illegally.

peterburkimsher 9y ago
I'm not stateless. I have a work visa. The article explains the pressure of living on a work visa (shut up, get in line, or lose your job, visa, and country). Taiwan is not "home" because I can't start a family here. Even if I didn't care about children's military service, I can't get a Taiwanese passport without renouncing my previous citizenship and going to military service myself. Taiwanese PR doesn't give children nationality, and I would lose the PR if I leave for more than 2 years.
- ricardobeat 9y ago
  As a British citizen, you can already have permanent residence there. Bringing a partner over has no income requirements, either proof of being together >2 years or marriage (anywhere, marriage is usually valid across countries) [1], I’ve seen hundreds of people bring their partners over to Europe. Your children will be born in the UK and have full citizenship. [1] https://www.gov.uk/uk-family-visa/partner-spouse https://www.gov.uk/uk-family-visa/partner-spouse
newfoundglory 9y ago
He's not stateless, he's British.

north_east_dev 9y ago

Sucks for your situation. One question though (I'm sure you've heard before)... > For her to move to the UK requires her to meet income requirements of £18,600 per year What about if you got married?

peterburkimsher 9y ago
Marriage doesn't help! "Partnership" is recognised by immigration, and that requires living together, sharing the same address and bank account for a year. This is because of a cultural shift in the meaning of marriage. It used to be one man and one woman, for life. Divorce, polygamy, homosexuality, and marriages of convenience changed that definition. I'm not trying to get distracted about whether those groups of people should be allowed to marry - that's a different political debate. The outcome is that marriage doesn't matter for immigration any more. As soon as I get married, I'm going to have sex! But that might bring babies. If those kids can't have nationality, or risk their parents being separated by visa issues, I want to delay having those kids. So I want to get PR before getting married.
- north_east_dev 9y ago
  Ok, it sounds like you've thought things through and best of luck with it.
- ryanobjc 9y ago
  I’m not sure why you threw in a dig at homosexuals in your little immigration rant. That’s probably why you’re getting downvotes here. Plus it erases a lot of goodwill you might be building up. Also btw, there is no modern state that recognizes polygamy, especially for immigration purposes! Ps: marriages of convenience are ... classic marriages. That is what marriage used to be. A business or political arrangement. For convenience.
- arkades 9y ago
  > As soon as I get married ... might bring babies Contraception.
- hycaria 9y ago

newfoundglory 9y ago

You're a British citizen, you can move to any country in the EU. If you marry your girlfriend, she can move with you, and other countries in the EU will not require her to show income to move with you. You could be there in a few months, without waiting for companies to notice you. Source: am British citizen by descent, have lived in France. Edit: and then to move to Britain from an EU country she doesn't need to show an income at all https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/family-residence-rights/non-eu-wife-husband-children/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/family-resid...

digianarchist 9y ago
You can always use the Surinder Singh route to bypass the income requirements of moving your spouse to the UK. It’s a pain and the Home Office will fight you tooth and nail but it’s legal.
biztos 9y ago
I might have this wrong, but last I checked IIRC the deal is your non-EU spouse has a right to live with you (assuming you're an EU national) in any EU country other than your own. She would also have a work permit, should she choose to work. In your own country the local immigration rules apply to your non-EU spouse. So for a UK citizen with a Taiwanese wife it would be extremely simple (until Brexit of course) to move with her, the "third-country national," to France or Austria or wherever. Whether it's also easy to move to the UK with her, I have no idea... but it's definitely not automatically approved in all EU countries.
- newfoundglory 9y ago
  As another commenter mentioned, it is known as the Surinder Singh application - you have to show that you are genuine residents of the other EU country, and then your home country has to treat you as they would any other couple with the right to live in the EU - https://www.gov.uk/family-permit/surinder-singh https://www.gov.uk/family-permit/surinder-singh
pm 9y ago
UK citizens should find it fairly easy to immigrate to Australia.

newfoundglory 9y ago

Oh, and just to address this concern: > future children would be stateless. If you had children who were stateless by birth, they would become eligible for British citizenship. Also, if you live in the UK for three consecutive years, then any children born after that period will be able to inherit British citizenship from you.

peterburkimsher 9y ago
Children born overseas (e.g. France, Taiwan) can't be British. Children born in the UK from me can be British, I think. I was in the UK for university and a Christian volunteer group, over a period of 5 years. I emailed the Home Office to ask to "upgrade" my citizenship, but they said there's no way to do that. So I'm not sure where you got that 3 year limit from. (But maybe this changed since 2012 when I was last there).
- newfoundglory 9y ago
  I got this information from my research in the 90s, and it’s definitely valid today. Your own citizenship does not change, but your children will be eligible to register as a British citizen through form MN1 Section 3(2) > To qualify under this section, the parent who is British by descent must have been born to a parent who was a British citizen otherwise than by descent (or if that person died, then they would have been a British citizen otherwise than by descent but for their death). The British citizen by descent parent must have lived in the UK (or, if the child was born on or after 21 May 2002, in a British overseas territory) for a continuous period of 3 years at any time before the child’s birth. During that period they should not have absences exceeding 270 days. The application must be made whilst the child is under 18 years of age. The 3 year residence requirement for the parent does not need to be met if the child is stateless. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/583385/MN1_Guide_January_2017.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
  - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
    What if two such parents had a child born in France? The child would be stateless, except that Britain allows stateless children born to British citizens to gain citizenship and France allows stateless children born in the country to gain citizenship. Which one would the children actually get?

circlefavshape 9y ago

AFAIK if you're a British citizen you're entitled to live in Ireland, and any children born in Ireland will have Irish citizenship

justin66 9y ago
And that's going to be an increasingly valuable passport in the coming years, I would think.

cletus 9y ago

Sorry but I don’t understand the problem: you have British citizenship. You can reside and work anywhere in the EU. That puts you in a fairly enviable position. If you marry your wife is entitled to permanent residency (I think it’s called permanent leave to remain), which is a lot easier to get than say any US equivalent. British permanent residency is (for now) EU residency. It’s also not quite true that your children would be stateless. This vastly depends in where they’re born. Also there are provisions for this in UK law. Lastly grandchildren of UK born citizens (which it sounds like they would be) are entitled to an ancestry visa. This gives 4 years to live and work in the UK without restriction. If they’re still there after 4 years they then get permanent residency and are entitled to apply for citizenship a year after that. EDIT: so it’s been some years since I lived in the UK and the rules have gotten much harsher on spouse visas, namely there is an income requirement for the Briton (£18,600pa) and the spouse visa is for 30 months renewable for another 30 months so now it takes 5 years to get ILR (indefinite leave to remain). It used to be 2. Still, it’s an option. As are other EU countries. Ireland, Sweden and even the Netherlands look like decent options. Maybe Austria too.

digianarchist 9y ago
Marriage does entitle his wife to PR. It entitles his wife to FLR which needs to be renewed after 2.5 years before she will be granted indefinitely leave to remain (UK green card). If you lose your job before the renewal she won’t get the visa. You are better off moving to Canada. You will both get PR straight away and citizenship in 3 years.

digianarchist 9y ago

If you come into Canada using the Express Entry immigrantiom system then you land as a PR and so does your wife. No qualification period. Also Canada recognises commonlaw marriage.

t1o5 9y ago
I made the switch from H1B's indentured servitude to being a permanent resident of Canada through the Express Entry system. It changed my life for good. US corporates likes H1B so much that they are lobbying to keep the shackles as it is. Here is how I did it -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15452647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15452647
peterburkimsher 9y ago
Yes, Canada's Express Entry is one of my top-two preferences. The problem is if I then leave for more than 2 years, I lose PR. So it's not really "Permanent". I'd have to stay for 4 years and become a citizen. But that's ok - I enjoyed my Working Holiday there, and I could see myself being there for 4 years. My girlfriend said she prefers NZ though (and NZ has tougher requirements) so I'm sticking with that for now. If anything happens to our relationship though, and we decide it's better to be apart, then I'll be on the next plane to Canada.
- digianarchist 9y ago
  >The problem is if I then leave for more than 2 years, I lose PR That's not correct. You need to be present in Canada for 2 years out of every 5. NZ is more flexible but has a 2 year qualifying period to get PR. It's also 3 years to qualify for citizenship. US Greencards are the worst. Leave the country for a couple of months and it can be revoked.

justin66 9y ago

> If she and I had children, they would be Taiwanese from her, and would have to go to the military and learn how to kill foreigners. There's a conflict of interest - I don't want children to kill me. Taiwan isn't the only country you mentioned that has compulsory military service. Your children would "kill you" (wtf?) if they grew up in Switzerland as well.

peterburkimsher 9y ago
Yes, that's correct. That's one major reason I'm not planning to move to Switzerland, Austria, Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, or Israel. The choice of other countries (EU, Canada, Australia, NZ) is more flexible, and mostly emotional based on my experience of working holiday/summer jobs in those places.

RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u 9y ago

> If she and I had children, they would be Taiwanese from her, and would have to go to the military and learn how to kill foreigners. Compulsory military service had been phasing out for years, if not fully by this year, almost certainly by the time your children would be born. Moreover, only men are conscripted, so it's a ~50% chance. Finally, there are various alternate services they could qualify for, in lieu of military service. So I'm not sure what your GF's been telling you?!