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The below may sound a bit harsh, but I'm trying to be clear - apologies in advance. I've got nothing against you or any circumstances you've been in. > Not pre

The below may sound a bit harsh, but I'm trying to be clear - apologies in advance. I've got nothing against you or any circumstances you've been in. > Not preposterous at all. The line is clear: viability outside the womb. That's not an argument that makes any sense at all, nor does it stack up when put under scrutiny. What about the viability of an infant that you arbitrarily decide you wish to eject from the home? You ask them to leave; well they can't walk. You ask them to find suitable accommodation elsewhere; well they can't talk. You tell them to feed themselves. Oh, you can't leave on your own? I still don't want you here -- leave, leave now. No?... What about the viability of a minority group that the government decides they don't want in their country? Lets say it's a bunch of Jews, eh? Follow through with your principle and see where it leads you. So I'd argue that this is an argument of selfishness, lack of responsibility and willful foolishness - traits which are considered highly unhealthy to self and society. Putting that aside, the other issue is that this argument completely skips the point at hand - human life. As a society, we deal with human life carefully for a reason - it's beautiful and important - it's something to be cherished and nurtured. Arguments like these try do deny this fact by looking the other way.

rabboRubble 8y ago
If I do not control what happens to my body, what freedom do I have? I am not advocating that I individually control the expulsion of an entire group of people at a national level. I demand only control over my own reproductive function. Women in these United States of America have no paid maternal leave unlike all other countries except 2 others, we have the highest maternal mortality rate in the developed world on par with Sri Lanka, and until Obamacare rolled around did not have automatic pre-natal care in our health insurance plans. Why should I relinquish my right to self determination for a nation that cares so little for my successful motherhood? The US at a policy level has no skin in the game, yet a large group of its citizens want to tell me what do? Screw that... We tolerate all sorts of nonsense in the US that ends people's lives in the name of freedom. Just look to the pro-2A crowd. They take no societal accountability for the lives of people in their policy preferences. Why should I accept any less for myself?
- socceroos 8y ago
  > If I do not control what happens to my body, what freedom do I have? This argument is again one that rejects the moral responsibility to the human child growing in the body. The notion that discontent with the situation justifies killing a human doesn't stack up. The point about the broken USA healthcare system will never justify the killing of unborn children. It also serves as a first-world excuse that is essentially based around inconvenience. Finally, the argument that "others do horrible things so therefore why can't we do this horrible thing too" doesn't make any kind of sense either.
  - StellarTabi 8y ago
    It's not really horrible at all, terminating unwanted fetuses. What is horrible is being complelled against your will to bring an unwanted child into this world without the desire or ability to care for it, then knowing how backwards and broken the first world is, let alone even considering the third world, then there are some fucked up religious people who expect you to be a slave to their ideologies, even in a place that's suppose to be so nice they call it the first world.
    - socceroos 8y ago
      > It's not really horrible at all, terminating unwanted fetuses. This is the crux of the issue though, isn't it. The desperate attempt to de-humanize the child so that, in some twisted way, it's OK to kill it before you feel bad.
      - StellarTabi 8y ago
        > you feel bad. I only feel bad for those poor women living as a slave to their authoritarians husband in theocratic distopias and the women who are forced against their will, in the face of a system stacked against both them and their children, to bear an unwanted child because you value the life of the unborn over the lives of the living.
StellarTabi 8y ago
I don't take "personal responsibility", "unborn fetuses are people", "human life matters", etc. arguements in favor of removing women's rights to abortion seriously so long as they completely disregard and/or contribute directly to (and they do, either by omission or by party association): widespread systemic poverty, child hunger, regressive sex education, anti-women legislation and philosophies, destruction of social safety net, constant victim blaming, lies and misinformation campaigns on the LGBT community, and cutting education budgets. So long as all of those things are being attacked, women need to be having as many abortions as possible.
- rabboRubble 8y ago
  Amen.
- socceroos 8y ago
  > widespread systemic poverty, child hunger, regressive sex education, anti-women legislation and philosophies, destruction of social safety net, constant victim blaming, lies and misinformation campaigns on the LGBT community, and cutting education budgets. > So long as all of those things are being attacked, women need to be having as many abortions as possible. Putting aside the bizarre and unfounded argument you just gave - all you've done is again looked the other way when it comes to taking human life. It's like you're sticking your fingers in your ears and loudly proclaiming "lalalala!".
  - StellarTabi 8y ago
    > It's like you're sticking your fingers in your ears and loudly proclaiming "lalalala!". It's absolutely not like that, in fact this is a spot on description of your response. Politicians who hate LGBT (by words and/or by legislation), fight to regress sex education, fight to made women's health care difficult to acquire, cite obnoxious BS like "family values" while cheating on their wives, soliciting homosexual encounters in restrooms, literally actually molesting children and defending the molesters, unambiguously defending the act of rape (rather than strictly refuting allegations), unanimously voted against net neutrality, budget cuts for education to fund tax cuts for the wealthy, cut the social safety net for impoverished people like single mothers, fetishizing the struggle of poor people with social Darwinism while denying biological Darwinism as fact, all this with waves of jobs bring automated away. These politicians play lip service to the abortion crowd and get the abortion vote. You can't call yourself "Pro Life" if you want to try to force women to carry unwanted children with one hand while making the world as shitty as possible for both the single mothers and their children with your other hand. You're the one who is sticking your fingers in your ears and loudly proclaming "lalalala!". The entire abortion platform is set up to fuck us all over as soon as the child is born. I've demonstrated that I actually care about human life, at least 100x more than you. You care about human being born. You immidietly don't give a shit about them the second after they're born.

rabboRubble 8y ago

If I do not control what happens to my body, what freedom do I have? I am not advocating that I individually control the expulsion of an entire group of people at a national level. I demand only control over my own reproductive function. Women in these United States of America have no paid maternal leave unlike all other countries except 2 others, we have the highest maternal mortality rate in the developed world on par with Sri Lanka, and until Obamacare rolled around did not have automatic pre-natal care in our health insurance plans. Why should I relinquish my right to self determination for a nation that cares so little for my successful motherhood? The US at a policy level has no skin in the game, yet a large group of its citizens want to tell me what do? Screw that... We tolerate all sorts of nonsense in the US that ends people's lives in the name of freedom. Just look to the pro-2A crowd. They take no societal accountability for the lives of people in their policy preferences. Why should I accept any less for myself?

socceroos 8y ago
> If I do not control what happens to my body, what freedom do I have? This argument is again one that rejects the moral responsibility to the human child growing in the body. The notion that discontent with the situation justifies killing a human doesn't stack up. The point about the broken USA healthcare system will never justify the killing of unborn children. It also serves as a first-world excuse that is essentially based around inconvenience. Finally, the argument that "others do horrible things so therefore why can't we do this horrible thing too" doesn't make any kind of sense either.
- StellarTabi 8y ago
  It's not really horrible at all, terminating unwanted fetuses. What is horrible is being complelled against your will to bring an unwanted child into this world without the desire or ability to care for it, then knowing how backwards and broken the first world is, let alone even considering the third world, then there are some fucked up religious people who expect you to be a slave to their ideologies, even in a place that's suppose to be so nice they call it the first world.
  - socceroos 8y ago
    > It's not really horrible at all, terminating unwanted fetuses. This is the crux of the issue though, isn't it. The desperate attempt to de-humanize the child so that, in some twisted way, it's OK to kill it before you feel bad.
    - StellarTabi 8y ago
      > you feel bad. I only feel bad for those poor women living as a slave to their authoritarians husband in theocratic distopias and the women who are forced against their will, in the face of a system stacked against both them and their children, to bear an unwanted child because you value the life of the unborn over the lives of the living.

StellarTabi 8y ago

I don't take "personal responsibility", "unborn fetuses are people", "human life matters", etc. arguements in favor of removing women's rights to abortion seriously so long as they completely disregard and/or contribute directly to (and they do, either by omission or by party association): widespread systemic poverty, child hunger, regressive sex education, anti-women legislation and philosophies, destruction of social safety net, constant victim blaming, lies and misinformation campaigns on the LGBT community, and cutting education budgets. So long as all of those things are being attacked, women need to be having as many abortions as possible.

rabboRubble 8y ago
Amen.
socceroos 8y ago
> widespread systemic poverty, child hunger, regressive sex education, anti-women legislation and philosophies, destruction of social safety net, constant victim blaming, lies and misinformation campaigns on the LGBT community, and cutting education budgets. > So long as all of those things are being attacked, women need to be having as many abortions as possible. Putting aside the bizarre and unfounded argument you just gave - all you've done is again looked the other way when it comes to taking human life. It's like you're sticking your fingers in your ears and loudly proclaiming "lalalala!".
- StellarTabi 8y ago
  > It's like you're sticking your fingers in your ears and loudly proclaiming "lalalala!". It's absolutely not like that, in fact this is a spot on description of your response. Politicians who hate LGBT (by words and/or by legislation), fight to regress sex education, fight to made women's health care difficult to acquire, cite obnoxious BS like "family values" while cheating on their wives, soliciting homosexual encounters in restrooms, literally actually molesting children and defending the molesters, unambiguously defending the act of rape (rather than strictly refuting allegations), unanimously voted against net neutrality, budget cuts for education to fund tax cuts for the wealthy, cut the social safety net for impoverished people like single mothers, fetishizing the struggle of poor people with social Darwinism while denying biological Darwinism as fact, all this with waves of jobs bring automated away. These politicians play lip service to the abortion crowd and get the abortion vote. You can't call yourself "Pro Life" if you want to try to force women to carry unwanted children with one hand while making the world as shitty as possible for both the single mothers and their children with your other hand. You're the one who is sticking your fingers in your ears and loudly proclaming "lalalala!". The entire abortion platform is set up to fuck us all over as soon as the child is born. I've demonstrated that I actually care about human life, at least 100x more than you. You care about human being born. You immidietly don't give a shit about them the second after they're born.