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Why should there be any limitation on hours, or any fee for access? It’s a public easement to allow access to public property, and it predates his ownership by

Why should there be any limitation on hours, or any fee for access? It’s a public easement to allow access to public property, and it predates his ownership by decades. And night time visits to the beach are awesome. He bought an asset, and is now trying to take value from the public to increase his own enjoyment of the asset and the value of that asset. An essentially private beach in California, and enforced by Supreme Court decision would be pretty cool, and insanely valuable. He should have no control over the access and should be liable for any attempt he makes to hinder or hide access. I’d totally make regular visits if I lived in the area.

rayiner 9y ago
Its not just a trail through the private property to the mean high tide line. Its a whole sandy beach, an access road, restrooms, etc. And it was always demarcated as private property—the previous owners operated it as a business. That’s why the case isn’t just about an easement. The county wants Khosla to keep operating it as a beach, not just to let people get to the water.
- kbutler 9y ago
  Any documents from the county to that effect? I didn’t find anything that said the county wouldn’t let him just open the access. I found lots of references that said people used to have reasonable to access the beach, but he bought the property and locked the gate.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    The opinion starts at page 50 of this pdf: https://d3583ivmhhw2le.cloudfront.net/images/uploads/publications/Petition_for_Writ_of_Certiorari_-_Martins_Beach_v._Surfrider_Found-2clean.pdf https://d3583ivmhhw2le.cloudfront.net/images/uploads/publica... The agency forced him to not only allow access down the road, but keep running the existing parking lot. Nobody disputes the parking lot is private.
    - kbutler 9y ago
      No, that's the order of the trial court saying he has to open the gate (and the appeals court affirming that ruling). The court is saying, "There is an established process to administer the law - you can't unilaterally decide to close the gate. Open it back up!" From that same document and everything else I've seen, he hasn't even applied for the permit to close it. If he applies, and if he's denied, then he can assert that allowing public access is a "taking" of his property rights, rather than just protecting the public's right of access. But he has to apply for the permit before the commission can decide to allow or forbid it.
      - kbutler 9y ago
        Rayiner asserts it is "the agency" that is forcing opening, but it is not (or had not been). The opinion at page 50 of the PDF is in the case "SURFRIDER FOUNDATION v. MARTINS BEACH 1, LLC et al." - It's a concerned citizen group filing suit against one of the two LLCs that purchased parts of the property, and the courts agreeing that Khosla must re-open the gate he locked. "[Surfrider has] kept it real simple,...It’s always been ‘Mr. Khosla, do you have a permit for that gate or don’t you?’” In September, after this decision, the commission began an enforcement action, which could cost Khosla over $4 million per year, and Khosla opened the gate, in addition to filing his appeals. http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/article/NE/20171004/NEWS/171009839 http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/article/NE/20171004/NEWS/17...
- taysic 9y ago
  This is an interesting point. But it really just points how silly it is to only make a beach public up to the high tide line. The public doesn't generally know where that line is anyway. Either they are allowed to use the beach or not... doubt anyone coming in by boat will check the high tide line and not stretch their towel out over the sandy beach. It's also not an absurdly low price considering it only allows access to a public area.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    You could imagine a different rule. But the mean high tide rule traces back to Roman law, and we got it by way of the Magna Carta. Too late to change it now without compensating all those property owners who own the beaches.
  - lovich 9y ago
    High tide lines aren't a theoretical line but leave an actual physical line of flotsam. He's also free to leave markers for the line and prevent people from going past the high tide line
    - kbutler 9y ago
      The physical line of flotsam is not the legal "mean high tide line". "In most states, all land below the mean high tide line belongs to the state and citizens have the right to unrestricted access to that land. Intuition would indicate that this “line” is where the sand changes from wet to dry during high tide. This, however, is not always the case. The mean high tide line is actually the arithmetic average of high-water heights observed by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) over an 18.6-year Metonic cycle. It is the line that is formed by the intersection of the tidal plane of the mean high tide with the shore. It is not an easy line to determine, and it is an even harder one to see. From standing on the beach watching the waves, there is no way of knowing exactly where the mean high tide line falls, or where public land begins and ends, making enforcement a difficult and controversial task. " http://www.beachapedia.org/Beach_Access http://www.beachapedia.org/Beach_Access (From Surfrider, a party to the lawsuits)
    - 9y ago
amarkov 9y ago
Unless he's just completely making things up, the previous owners had limitations and charged a fee.
- kbutler 9y ago
  And the county regulations do allow him to do that, if he chooses, but he doesn’t want to - he closed the gate and wants to keep it closed. That isn’t legal, as determined by the trial court, the appeals court, and the CA Supreme Court.

rayiner 9y ago

Its not just a trail through the private property to the mean high tide line. Its a whole sandy beach, an access road, restrooms, etc. And it was always demarcated as private property—the previous owners operated it as a business. That’s why the case isn’t just about an easement. The county wants Khosla to keep operating it as a beach, not just to let people get to the water.

kbutler 9y ago
Any documents from the county to that effect? I didn’t find anything that said the county wouldn’t let him just open the access. I found lots of references that said people used to have reasonable to access the beach, but he bought the property and locked the gate.
- rayiner 9y ago
  The opinion starts at page 50 of this pdf: https://d3583ivmhhw2le.cloudfront.net/images/uploads/publications/Petition_for_Writ_of_Certiorari_-_Martins_Beach_v._Surfrider_Found-2clean.pdf https://d3583ivmhhw2le.cloudfront.net/images/uploads/publica... The agency forced him to not only allow access down the road, but keep running the existing parking lot. Nobody disputes the parking lot is private.
  - kbutler 9y ago
    No, that's the order of the trial court saying he has to open the gate (and the appeals court affirming that ruling). The court is saying, "There is an established process to administer the law - you can't unilaterally decide to close the gate. Open it back up!" From that same document and everything else I've seen, he hasn't even applied for the permit to close it. If he applies, and if he's denied, then he can assert that allowing public access is a "taking" of his property rights, rather than just protecting the public's right of access. But he has to apply for the permit before the commission can decide to allow or forbid it.
    - kbutler 9y ago
      Rayiner asserts it is "the agency" that is forcing opening, but it is not (or had not been). The opinion at page 50 of the PDF is in the case "SURFRIDER FOUNDATION v. MARTINS BEACH 1, LLC et al." - It's a concerned citizen group filing suit against one of the two LLCs that purchased parts of the property, and the courts agreeing that Khosla must re-open the gate he locked. "[Surfrider has] kept it real simple,...It’s always been ‘Mr. Khosla, do you have a permit for that gate or don’t you?’” In September, after this decision, the commission began an enforcement action, which could cost Khosla over $4 million per year, and Khosla opened the gate, in addition to filing his appeals. http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/article/NE/20171004/NEWS/171009839 http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/article/NE/20171004/NEWS/17...
taysic 9y ago
This is an interesting point. But it really just points how silly it is to only make a beach public up to the high tide line. The public doesn't generally know where that line is anyway. Either they are allowed to use the beach or not... doubt anyone coming in by boat will check the high tide line and not stretch their towel out over the sandy beach. It's also not an absurdly low price considering it only allows access to a public area.
- rayiner 9y ago
  You could imagine a different rule. But the mean high tide rule traces back to Roman law, and we got it by way of the Magna Carta. Too late to change it now without compensating all those property owners who own the beaches.
- lovich 9y ago
  High tide lines aren't a theoretical line but leave an actual physical line of flotsam. He's also free to leave markers for the line and prevent people from going past the high tide line
  - kbutler 9y ago
    The physical line of flotsam is not the legal "mean high tide line". "In most states, all land below the mean high tide line belongs to the state and citizens have the right to unrestricted access to that land. Intuition would indicate that this “line” is where the sand changes from wet to dry during high tide. This, however, is not always the case. The mean high tide line is actually the arithmetic average of high-water heights observed by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) over an 18.6-year Metonic cycle. It is the line that is formed by the intersection of the tidal plane of the mean high tide with the shore. It is not an easy line to determine, and it is an even harder one to see. From standing on the beach watching the waves, there is no way of knowing exactly where the mean high tide line falls, or where public land begins and ends, making enforcement a difficult and controversial task. " http://www.beachapedia.org/Beach_Access http://www.beachapedia.org/Beach_Access (From Surfrider, a party to the lawsuits)
  - 9y ago

amarkov 9y ago

Unless he's just completely making things up, the previous owners had limitations and charged a fee.

kbutler 9y ago
And the county regulations do allow him to do that, if he chooses, but he doesn’t want to - he closed the gate and wants to keep it closed. That isn’t legal, as determined by the trial court, the appeals court, and the CA Supreme Court.