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> For all that went wrong for blacks, they generally didn't flee on boats with only the shirts on their backs after witnessing a quarter of the people that they

> For all that went wrong for blacks, they generally didn't flee on boats with only the shirts on their backs after witnessing a quarter of the people that they grew up with being killed. Only to land in a country where they didn't speak the language, or understand the culture, and were generally disliked. This is literally what happened through the Atlantic slave trade.. just replace "flee" w/ "were sold". > I'm drawing from my thoughts and other comments here. The determination that it takes to be a refugee. True hope that they can create a better life. A culture of helping fellow minority members. A certainty that no matter what the frustration, it really could be worse. > Now can we encourage those attitudes in blacks? I believe so. I know that these characteristics have been shown time and time again within the black community. If you want to see a culture of helping fellow minority members look to the NAACP, if you want to see an example of determination please read "Up From Slavery", if you want to understand the hope to create a better life read "The Warmth of Other Suns". My argument is not "things are out of your control" nor is it that there is something lacking in the black community that other successful minorities have demonstrated.. my argument is "here are the institutional and systemic barriers that are present -- if you want to understand the present situation and how to move forward you must understand them".

yourapostasy 9y ago
> ..."here are the institutional and systemic barriers that are present -- if you want to understand the present situation and how to move forward you must understand them" I don't want to put words into GP's reply to you, so this is purely my interpretation of what they were saying. The standard go-to retort by advocates of black American equality when presented with examples of minority community success stories is, "So? Blacks in America have had to contend with 400 years of systemic slavery and discrimination!" The position of your argument, and others like it, is we have to "study" the barriers, we must "understand" them before we can make progress against them. My counter-thesis is that while it is important to be cognizant of barriers, what I call "dinner table change" (the kind of changes that bring dinner to your family's table that night) comes most effectively through power, and power accrues most effectively to those minority communities who organize together culturally, socially, and economically. They work around the barriers, and undermine them over time by obsoleting them, turning them into anachronisms. There is one minority community that has powerfully proven this approach works. But it takes generations of time, and that is an unsatisfactory answer in today's climate. I have in mind a community that endured not only slavery, but systemic discrimination for not hundreds, but thousands of years. And they made lemonade out of their sour position. The Jewish community. And many minority or disenfranchised communities can learn from the lessons Jews iterated through, found and practiced workable strategies through the millennia. These aren't just lessons for ethnic minorities, either. The recognition of wealth inequality for example, can bind together people under that common cause into their own minority community. It is difficult to feel satisfaction of progress from signing petitions, voting, or politically participating to advocate for changes in laws, policies, and attitudes. Those activities still must be carried out, but expecting everyone who cares about such change to only channel their efforts in such manners is unrealistic. There is immense satisfaction however at a small and daily level, when for example a local minority small business serving a minority community notches up another satisfied customer. I know there are many criticisms to this insular, tribalistic advocacy. Our outlook should be more inclusively expansive. We are better than what I am talking about. But there comes a time when the concerns of tactical survival mount to the point that it is better to acknowledge the mainstream system has failed a specific constituency (for now, hopefully), than to sacrifice the well-being of one's family, loved ones, and dear friends upon the altars of ideologies and "The Should".
- btilly 9y ago
  There is a lot of wisdom to this. And a lot of minorities have had challenges which are now forgotten. When we focus on things beyond our control, we create a sense of hopelessness. And the result is that we fail to do the things in our control that can create change. Here is a lesson. If you go back 100 years ago, there was a resurgence of the KKK. The main target of their ire was NOT blacks, it was the Catholics (mostly Irish and Italian) and Jews. Their political power was such that Prohibition was passed with the main goal of giving more legal tools to discriminate against those groups. And their greatest stronghold was not in the South - it was in Oregon. See https://www.portlandmercury.com/feature/2017/11/15/19472650/echoes-of-the-klan https://www.portlandmercury.com/feature/2017/11/15/19472650/... for verification of this. My father's side of the family was Irish from Oregon. I won't forget a long conversation with my uncle about what it was like as a child growing up with concern about which neighbors might be KKK, and the importance of not drawing unwanted attention to himself at school. Nor was this then a new conflict. The Irish largely came here as refugees from events like the Irish potato famine that happened under the long and brutal English occupation. This occupation began with English invasion in the 1100s. The conflict had been religious as well since Cromwell's put down rebellion with massacres in the mid-1600s. And then they came to the USA, a country founded and run by WASPs - White Anglo Saxon Protestants. Who knew and remembered this history of conflict as well as the Irish did. For Catholics, the importance of JFK being elected was no different than the importance of Obama being elected to blacks. To date, JFK remains the only US President to be openly non-Protestant. Despite his family's wealth and power, he saw in the Civil Rights movement a familiar struggle. When you study the long history of discrimination and oppression, do not satisfy yourself with only studying your own people's oppression. Understand that your story is not the only one. Learn about other people's struggles as well, learn what worked for them, and try to emulate them. The black community has done so at points. For example the Civil Rights movement went much better in part because Martin Luther King learned from Gandhi's example and successes. However the current narrative that I see seems actively counterproductive.

yourapostasy 9y ago

> ..."here are the institutional and systemic barriers that are present -- if you want to understand the present situation and how to move forward you must understand them" I don't want to put words into GP's reply to you, so this is purely my interpretation of what they were saying. The standard go-to retort by advocates of black American equality when presented with examples of minority community success stories is, "So? Blacks in America have had to contend with 400 years of systemic slavery and discrimination!" The position of your argument, and others like it, is we have to "study" the barriers, we must "understand" them before we can make progress against them. My counter-thesis is that while it is important to be cognizant of barriers, what I call "dinner table change" (the kind of changes that bring dinner to your family's table that night) comes most effectively through power, and power accrues most effectively to those minority communities who organize together culturally, socially, and economically. They work around the barriers, and undermine them over time by obsoleting them, turning them into anachronisms. There is one minority community that has powerfully proven this approach works. But it takes generations of time, and that is an unsatisfactory answer in today's climate. I have in mind a community that endured not only slavery, but systemic discrimination for not hundreds, but thousands of years. And they made lemonade out of their sour position. The Jewish community. And many minority or disenfranchised communities can learn from the lessons Jews iterated through, found and practiced workable strategies through the millennia. These aren't just lessons for ethnic minorities, either. The recognition of wealth inequality for example, can bind together people under that common cause into their own minority community. It is difficult to feel satisfaction of progress from signing petitions, voting, or politically participating to advocate for changes in laws, policies, and attitudes. Those activities still must be carried out, but expecting everyone who cares about such change to only channel their efforts in such manners is unrealistic. There is immense satisfaction however at a small and daily level, when for example a local minority small business serving a minority community notches up another satisfied customer. I know there are many criticisms to this insular, tribalistic advocacy. Our outlook should be more inclusively expansive. We are better than what I am talking about. But there comes a time when the concerns of tactical survival mount to the point that it is better to acknowledge the mainstream system has failed a specific constituency (for now, hopefully), than to sacrifice the well-being of one's family, loved ones, and dear friends upon the altars of ideologies and "The Should".

btilly 9y ago
There is a lot of wisdom to this. And a lot of minorities have had challenges which are now forgotten. When we focus on things beyond our control, we create a sense of hopelessness. And the result is that we fail to do the things in our control that can create change. Here is a lesson. If you go back 100 years ago, there was a resurgence of the KKK. The main target of their ire was NOT blacks, it was the Catholics (mostly Irish and Italian) and Jews. Their political power was such that Prohibition was passed with the main goal of giving more legal tools to discriminate against those groups. And their greatest stronghold was not in the South - it was in Oregon. See https://www.portlandmercury.com/feature/2017/11/15/19472650/echoes-of-the-klan https://www.portlandmercury.com/feature/2017/11/15/19472650/... for verification of this. My father's side of the family was Irish from Oregon. I won't forget a long conversation with my uncle about what it was like as a child growing up with concern about which neighbors might be KKK, and the importance of not drawing unwanted attention to himself at school. Nor was this then a new conflict. The Irish largely came here as refugees from events like the Irish potato famine that happened under the long and brutal English occupation. This occupation began with English invasion in the 1100s. The conflict had been religious as well since Cromwell's put down rebellion with massacres in the mid-1600s. And then they came to the USA, a country founded and run by WASPs - White Anglo Saxon Protestants. Who knew and remembered this history of conflict as well as the Irish did. For Catholics, the importance of JFK being elected was no different than the importance of Obama being elected to blacks. To date, JFK remains the only US President to be openly non-Protestant. Despite his family's wealth and power, he saw in the Civil Rights movement a familiar struggle. When you study the long history of discrimination and oppression, do not satisfy yourself with only studying your own people's oppression. Understand that your story is not the only one. Learn about other people's struggles as well, learn what worked for them, and try to emulate them. The black community has done so at points. For example the Civil Rights movement went much better in part because Martin Luther King learned from Gandhi's example and successes. However the current narrative that I see seems actively counterproductive.